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Topic: Press failing to extrude

My Press, like a lot of your Presses, is having a really difficult time extruding ABS. Here are the symptoms of my problem:

1. The Press generally extrudes the first couple inches of material just fine and then the "clicking" starts and nothing further comes out.

2. I've noticed that this problem is generally persistent in the first layers of the print when the Press is creating layers at the slowest speed possible for best adhesion.

3. The spur gear that drives the filament is eating into the filament at an incredible rate.

4. All temperatures are correct. I've now tried to print at 220, 230, 235, 240, 245, 250 and 255 degrees Celcius. The 245-250 degree setting seems to work best. Lower temperatures cause the filament to get chewed up quickly and higher settings cause the filament to back up without chewing into the filament itself as much.

5. When I just tell the Press to extrude material without printing, it does so fine 99% of the time.

6. When starting a print with a room temperature machine, the problem is NOTICEABLY not as present.

Here's what I know from past experience with other printers:

In poorly designed hot ends, or just some hot ends in general, the heat is not well isolated to the nozzle tip so filament melts pretty far up towards to the spur drive. As plastic generally expands when it is heated, this causes pressure to build up behind the nozzle opening inside the hot end. This pressure can be enough to counteract the force of the spur drive, causing it to spin into the filament and chew it up. Once the spur drive has chewed a cavity into the filament, that filament isn't going anywhere.

ABS typically extrudes at 230-235ish degrees Celcius. The fact that the Solidoodle filament extrudes best around 250 and doesn't really extrude that well at 235 leads me to believe that this is an impure and/or weird custom formulation of ABS. After printing a lot of ABS with other printers, I know what it smells like when it's extruded too. The Solidoodle filament has a weird acrid- far more so than usual- odor.

Here's my theory on what's happening with the Press:

It's a combination of three things and, as I've only attempted to print with the included Solidoodle material so far, I'd love to hear input on this.

1.) The hot end is heating up the filament too far into the hot end body causing a pressure build up.

2.) The tension wheel that presses the filament into the spur gear is a little too strong.

3. The included Solidoodle ABS sucks big time and can't handle being compressed by the spur gear, nor can it handle being extruded through the hot end as designed in an effective manner.

This is why the filament extrudes fine when it's just being extruded without printing- it's not in the hot end body long enough to heat up outside of at the very nozzle tip. It's also why the printer generally prints okay when it's printing for the first time from the "cold" room temperature state; the hot end body and the drive head haven't heated up yet.

Possible fixes:

Heat up the hot bed manually before initiating the print. That way the hot end isn't sitting there heating up the hot end body and extruder body while the hot bed is heating up.

Change out the filament for something of a known higher quality like the Makerbot ABS.

Add another fan to the extruder body to keep everything cooler.




I'm going to try a Makerbot ABS next to see if that fairs any better. I'll report back either way but it may not be for a day or two.

2 (edited by CepheidMadEngineer 2015-01-17 10:02:30)

Re: Press failing to extrude

I commented in the other thread about jamming/extruder issues and want to add some of my own testing as well. Not sure if there's a preferred place to discuss this.

I noticed the fan on the extruder seems...oddly placed. I don't yet understand why nearly half, if not more, of the fan's area is facing a flat non-porus surface (the motor body) with no outlet. I also think that my fan was pulling air through the heatsink as opposed to pushing. I went ahead and flipped that around, don't expect that to do anything but it's on record.

I also finished a little 3D-ghost-pacman while my other machine was doing the same, to compare. It's the longest print I've done so far on the Press and went off without any issues. On top of that, it printed from a very warm chamber since it had been idling for awhile. I made no changes outside the fan flip, but this is a single data point and all things tell me the fan change shouldn't do anything. I think it's worth noting that I had opened the lid 3 times during the print to peek inside.

I made a slight attempt at changing the tension in the idler but can't get it to cooperate. (If anyone else dares this, I'd recommend lacing something through the spring while you try to tighten or unwind it, so if it gets away it can't go too far).


I'm very curious about the results from a change of filament, can't wait to hear.

(Currently still using SoliPrint)

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Re: Press failing to extrude

Update 1:

I pulled apart the extruder assembly to see if I could lessen the tension on the spring. My advice: don't do it. It's the same type of spring that is in a clothespin and there's really no way to reduce its pressure. You can't just remove a section of spring or something. I'll look into getting a replacement spring but in the meantime, I'm sticking with this one. Also, putting this thing back together is COMPLICATED and has to be done in the correct order or you are screwed.

I reversed the cooling fan as suggested, I'll see if that makes a difference. I'm thinking that it makes sense to relocate the fan to redirect cooling air over the nozzle more directly but I want to print out a fitting that controls the air flow first.

Will update with the filament tests in a bit/tomorrow morning.

4 (edited by CepheidMadEngineer 2015-01-19 16:47:40)

Re: Press failing to extrude

Had a jam, and needed to clean things out and rethread the filament. Had a second jam immediately. Combination of knocking and grinding. Was greated by the following (photos) when taking things apart again. 

Everything had been sufficiently warm for awhile. What's interesting to me is that in cleaning out the hobbing I had to remove the most readily accessible metal portion of the extruder and found it easy to handle. Was certainly warm but neither it nor the hobbed hub were excessively warm. The hot end was readily hot.

Three photos for evidence (album link if the attachments don't work )


imgur.com/a/utuG1


1.) Shows the filament I removed, ground out portion of filament, and a curious shifting of the filament at the point of entering the hot end at it's attachment point.

2.) A rough doodle of mine with the filament overlayed.

3.) Filament and doodle separate (started to label but figured it was understood enough).


I'm now very curious about the following things:

Placement of the hobbed hub. This thing sits very far inward on the "shaft" made by the inlet to the cold end and inlet to the hot end. The filament has to make quite the turn to actually get around it.

The connection between the hot end and cold end. I'm wondering if the hot end isn't properly dumping heat to the rest of the extruder.


I think I'm going to see if I have any thermal paste good enough for 250C and apply it to the connection between the hot end and cold end. As far as the position of the hobbed bolt...it really bother's me and I really wish I had an easy fix for that. It'd either mean shifting the entire metal construction over a little, or making a smaller diameter hobbed hub.

EDIT: Forget that thing about the paste, nothing I have is that temperature.

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Re: Press failing to extrude

Update #2

The high quality filament came in today. I am printing with it now. The problems that I had before (spur gear grinding into the filament, presumed filament backpressure) are gone. The Press is now humming along happily.

I'm not allowed to post links apparently but I purchased the filament from Amazon called SainSmart 1.75mm ABS Filament 1kg/2.2lb for 3D Printers. According to a couple forums I read and the Amazon reviews of the filament itself, it's pretty great. Some of the best on the market. I also read and heard good things about the MakerBot filament. Same ballpark quality.

Anyways, I'm happy. This is a great thing. I'll post something more if anything new pops up.

Oh also, I flipped the fan around. I don't know if that's helping anything majorly but it was trying to suck air through a solid block of metal before and that didn't make sense to me at all.

I'll post an update when the print is done. I'm using an iPhone 6 dock with a bunch of overhangs and holes that I found on Thingiverse.

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Re: Press failing to extrude

Update 2+:

One more thing- I removed that clear plastic vanity cover over the housing. It seemed to impede airflow across the spur gear and it also allowed for a build up of plastic dust next to the gear itself which only seemed to exacerbate the slipping/grinding problem. I'll give it to Solidoodle; it looked nice but I don't think it works all that well functionally.

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Re: Press failing to extrude

Update 3:

Press is fully functional now with the exception of the automatic deployment of the z-probe. Something weird is going on there and I haven't figured it out yet.

I'm overall very happy with the print quality. It definitely could use a little tuning but all seems well. I'm in the middle of an 8 hour print and there have been zero issues. I'll post images of the print when it's done. It's a iPhone 5 holder in the shape of an open upturned hand. Serious overhangs. So far, those overhangs are being printed- no sweat.

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Re: Press failing to extrude

nice.  are you using soliprint?

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Re: Press failing to extrude

Is this an accurate summary of what you did to fix the extruder stripping the filament?

- reversed extruder fan
- using 'SainSmart 1.75mm ABS Filament'
- removed clear vanity cover

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Re: Press failing to extrude

Yes, I'm using SoliPrint. Going on 6 hours now with continuous use and no problems/jams.

And yes, I reversed the fan, removed the vanity cover and used the higher quality filament.

Last night, I tried printing with the SainSmart in the original roll it came in. Because the roll didn't fit the cavity in the top of the Press perfectly like the stock reel does, a snarl eventually developed. The extruder head got caught up while the belts rotated so the head was shifted over a couple millimeters once the snarl cleared. A failed print, but I don't chalk that one up to printer error. That was me trying to use the printer in a way that was not intended. But the good news on all this: even after the filament got caught with the drive spur essentially grinding away in one spot for a bit, extrusion resumed (albeit off center) once the snarl was removed.

So for this print today, I respooled the SainSmart on the stock Press reel and everything is flying. I highly recommend doing this. I was worried that some snarl would develop because I wouldn't be able to get the wrapping as even as it was done on the SainSmart and Solidoodle reels to begin with but my uneven respooling efforts don't seem to be making a whole lot of difference at all. A word of advice on the respooling: the ABS is spooled at first when it's probably warm from being created in the first place so it retains the circular shape of the original reel it was placed on. If you respool any filament, but in my case the SainSmart filament, from the outside strand working towards the inner end, you basically reverse the filament on the new spool. Meaning that the largest circles of filament will be on the inside of the new reel while the inside filament will be on the outside of the new reel. Basically, this causes the filament to jump off the new reel easier than it should because by respooling the filament in that manner, you are forcing filament used to bending in a much tighter radius to bend in a much larger radius. So long story short, try to start respooling from the inner end and work outward. You'll have to remove one side of the SainSmart reel to do that. I know that's confusing. I can't think of a better way to describe it. Just try it for yourself and you'll see pretty quickly. That being said, printing with both tops closed seems to make all the difference in keeping the filament on the reel before it's pulled off by the extruder.

I think Solidoodle designed a really great extruder, it just happened to come with some massively crap filament that couldn't handle it.

Print is almost done. I'll post pictures if the forum lets me.

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Re: Press failing to extrude

Print completed.

I printed this iPhone dock: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:31105

Attached are some pictures of the completed print. I printed this at the lowest resolution available in SoliPrint with a 15mm brim. The total runtime was about 6 hrs, 30 minutes. The original model wasn't the highest resolution to begin with and I think that contributed to the results that you see but on the whole, I'm extremely pleased especially considering this is the first print that I've successfully gotten off the machine.

So things I've learned:

1. The Press handled overhangs really well. I think that's about as much of a function of the ABS used as the printer itself but still. Pretty impressive.

2. There is some slop in the X and Y axes. I think this can be filtered out by tightening the belts and bearings as suggested by a couple other members in other parts of this forum. I'll report back on this later. The striation that is present in the print is potentially attributable to the low model resolution and the low print resolution. Who knows. More prints will tell.

3. The extruder, for all the initial problems, is pretty solid. I was monitoring the print throughout and I never noticed a temperature deviation of more than 1 degree or so the whole time, even when I opened the front door.

4. The Z probe on this thing is still pretty bad. Well, the probe is fine but the sequence that it runs to deploy it is awful. I've taken to manually deploying the probe and manually retracting it. I am pretty sure that the probe will be the first thing to break on this machine. The sequence keeps bashing the probe into the side walls/ramps rather than smoothly going over/under them.

5. The filament system that Solidoodle made for the Press is great. I put an inherently poorly wrapped spool of ABS into the machine and it handled it no sweat. With other printers I've used/had, I generally don't feel right without one eye on the process to avert jams before they happen. I don't have qualms about leaving the Press unattended.

That's all for now. More to come later should I get around to printing something else although I think I'm going to pay attention to my normal life now that I de-gremlin'd the Press enough that I am confident that it will work should I ask it to do so.

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12

Re: Press failing to extrude

One other thing to add, I was having major filament shredding issues.  It didn't matter what filament brand I would use, case open or closed.... My prints would always fail during or just after layer 1.  The extruder wheel was grinding into the filament.

There are multiple causes for this.

The end result for me was actually my z offset calibration.  Layer 1 would always print as a bunch of smears, instead of the bold lines you would expect to see.  Since the head was too close to the bed, the first layer was too hard to push out.  The filament jammed.

To fix, I sent codes m502 and m500 to reset my printer to factory, then reran the z offset wizard in soliprint.  I hit the checkbox in the wizard for the correctly printed line, and bingo; big fat lines on layer 1 and no more smearing.
My press printed all night without trouble.

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Re: Press failing to extrude

Something is wrong with your press, that banding in the entire hand is not part of the model. Loose or inaccurate x or y axis.