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SoliForum - 3D Printing Community → XYZ Printing DaVinci → warping help.
So i just did my first overnight print that took about 4 hours. When I looked at the parts I noticed the ends were bowed up. What would have caused this to happen. These were done with stock firmware and xyzware. 20% density, 0.2 layer height, ABS
Uneven cooling. You need a fan even with ABS on large or thick parts. The fan will force cool each layer so it will not curl.
not a fan. need inclosure so it dont cool uneven and warp/peel layers apart
not a fan. need inclosure so it dont cool uneven and warp/peel layers apart
The Da Vinci is fully enclosed. I have been printing since the original cupcake hit the market. So I do have experience at heneral printing. Maybe not all machine specifics.
But I can say for sure if you can direct air to all regions below the head so it cools as it prints you will not have this issue. I am designing a mount for this very reason myself. Just trying to come up with a low profile duct that can put air behind the head as well.
My experience is that curled edges can be controlled by more glue. When I have a print fail in the way your picture demonstrates, after I remove the part I simply go over the area where the object is printed (without cleaning the bed of old glue first) and make sure I have a more liberal application of glue along the edges and particularly corners of the object. This always works for me.
n2ri wrote:not a fan. need inclosure so it dont cool uneven and warp/peel layers apart
The Da Vinci is fully enclosed. I have been printing since the original cupcake hit the market. So I do have experience at heneral printing. Maybe not all machine specifics.
But I can say for sure if you can direct air to all regions below the head so it cools as it prints you will not have this issue. I am designing a mount for this very reason myself. Just trying to come up with a low profile duct that can put air behind the head as well.
you are incorrect on this theory.
pics of OP show open print bed used. maybe people would fill in their signature as most of us so others know what your using it will help understand. also OP says using ABS.
Mine also is inclosed as it says at bottom of my posts but anyone doing large 3D prints in ABS will tell you. part cooling fans are for PLA to help cool it faster and not droop etc and for bridges in ABS when fan is Gcode controlled.
large ABS prints if cooled too fast once 1st layer is stuck other layers shrink and pull apart or pull bottom layer loose from bed. both pics show this exact effect. I have experienced even worse if I remove my inclosure on long/large prints.
ABS when doing tall/long prints over an hour need a heated inclosure so the upper layers dont cool/shrink so much faster than layers near bed since bed must stay hot enough to keep it from popping loose til print is finished. unlike PLA which needs no heat on bed after 1st layer sticks so all layers cool at about same temps. search this site for lots of topics on this.
you are incorrect on this theory.
pics of OP show open print bed used. maybe people would fill in their signature as most of us so others know what your using it will help understand. also OP says using ABS.
This is the Da Vinci section of the forum, the Da vinci is fully enclosed.
The 1st picture in the OP shows the left side wall of the Da Vinci case confirming this.
carl_m1968 wrote:n2ri wrote:not a fan. need inclosure so it dont cool uneven and warp/peel layers apart
The Da Vinci is fully enclosed. I have been printing since the original cupcake hit the market. So I do have experience at heneral printing. Maybe not all machine specifics.
But I can say for sure if you can direct air to all regions below the head so it cools as it prints you will not have this issue. I am designing a mount for this very reason myself. Just trying to come up with a low profile duct that can put air behind the head as well.
you are incorrect on this theory.
pics of OP show open print bed used. maybe people would fill in their signature as most of us so others know what your using it will help understand. also OP says using ABS.
Mine also is inclosed as it says at bottom of my posts but anyone doing large 3D prints in ABS will tell you. part cooling fans are for PLA to help cool it faster and not droop etc and for bridges in ABS when fan is Gcode controlled.large ABS prints if cooled too fast once 1st layer is stuck other layers shrink and pull apart or pull bottom layer loose from bed. both pics show this exact effect. I have experienced even worse if I remove my inclosure on long/large prints.
ABS when doing tall/long prints over an hour need a heated inclosure so the upper layers dont cool/shrink so much faster than layers near bed since bed must stay hot enough to keep it from popping loose til print is finished. unlike PLA which needs no heat on bed after 1st layer sticks so all layers cool at about same temps. search this site for lots of topics on this.
I hear what you are saying, but it seems you don't hear me. I did not say it was a theory. I said it was a practice, a practice i have used for 6 years or more. I also have always used a heated bed with PLA as that is the only way it sticks to bare glass or Kapton which makes it stick much better than any other method. The fan for ABS cools each layer as it is printed. Because of that you don't have any layers that are hotter than others. The entire piece is a cool uniform temperature with exception to the lower portion that is heated by the bed. Also as Scob indicated the OPS first pic is of a Da Vinci and they have a full enclosure, Please Google to see one.
but the bottom several layers are hot for the entire print so they will not cool causing layers above to warp.
like I said there are dozens of topics on this in this forum to support what I am saying. and PLA only needs a lower amount of heat (60c-70c instead of 80c-110c as ABS) on bed if any for 1st layer to stick then bed heater can be turned off in slicer. if you turn bed heat off with ABS it will likely pop loose from Kapton when it gets below 70c. but Im sure by what the pics above show if a cooling fan is placed on print the layer splitting and interior stringing will worsen on prints taking over a couple hours. an 8hr print will be unusable likely due to many layers separating. this is an open case printer already. much different than closed case print beds like yours. also we dont know what model printer or options as for as if it even has bed heater.
this is an open case printer already. much different than closed case print beds like yours. also we dont know what model printer or options as for as if it even has bed heater.
Dude, did you not read the previous posts by myself and carl ?
This is a Da Vinci subforum. The OP is using a Da Vinci printer which is FULLY enclosed and also has a heated bed.
Using the DaVinci 1.0 in stock condition, it has been noted that the center of the heated bed is usually hotter than near the bed edges. Consequently, if your print extends to the edges of the print area, the edges will cool faster than the center.
One consequence on a large 6 hour print for me was that the center of the print was slightly burned due to excessive center heat.
The only way to fix the edge lifting is to add the extra glue to the edges and depending on your bed temp distribution across the bed, even the extra glue may not help.
If you are not running a stock DaVinci, you may be able to lower the bed temps after the first couple of layers to keep from trapping heat near the center. There may be other methods for helping to control the bed temp distributions for non-stock DaVinci's.
If you are not running a stock DaVinci, you may be able to lower the bed temps after the first couple of layers to keep from trapping heat near the center. There may be other methods for helping to control the bed temp distributions for non-stock DaVinci's.
Actually, you can do this with some slicers, even with the stock firmware.
I use Cura to reduce the bed temp after the first layer on problem prints and this often fixes the issue. Something for the OP to try.
You can also change the extruder temp and printing speed at any given layer with Cura.
but the bottom several layers are hot for the entire print so they will not cool causing layers above to warp.
like I said there are dozens of topics on this in this forum to support what I am saying. and PLA only needs a lower amount of heat (60c-70c instead of 80c-110c as ABS) on bed if any for 1st layer to stick then bed heater can be turned off in slicer. if you turn bed heat off with ABS it will likely pop loose from Kapton when it gets below 70c. but Im sure by what the pics above show if a cooling fan is placed on print the layer splitting and interior stringing will worsen on prints taking over a couple hours. an 8hr print will be unusable likely due to many layers separating. this is an open case printer already. much different than closed case print beds like yours. also we dont know what model printer or options as for as if it even has bed heater.
I am judging by your signature and lack of knowledge of a Da Vinci printer that you don't own one. So why you are posting in a Da Vinci Sub Forum is beyond me. The point is if you look at the OPs first picture you can plainly see the left side enclosure shell of a Da Vinci printer. That being said we know what printer he is using. It does not matter what model as all Da Vinci Printers use the same case and most parts.
I guess I am just going to have to make that fan mount and use it on a six hour print to prove that a fan does work for lifting on ABS as well. My original cupcake from Makerbot was designed for ABS and operated with Pronterface. It had a fan that would blow directly on the printed area all the time. So at some point in time manufacturers also found this works as well.
So since I currently dont have a fan I printed another set. this time I put the side plugs in on the side of the case and never once opened the door and it still warped in the same place, right at the end of the long parts. So I will now order a fan and print the fan duct for it then give it a go. I will post back with my results. in a few days.
hey guys,
let me just ask a silly question while were on the topic of fans... where should we place them? you cannot really get one very close to the bed due to the carriage moving around the enclosure too much.
any ideas?
alex
hey guys,
let me just ask a silly question while were on the topic of fans... where should we place them? you cannot really get one very close to the bed due to the carriage moving around the enclosure too much.
any ideas?
alex
Print one of these http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:529837 and stick a 40mm fan on it.
I find it very effective. It's helped me print a few things that would have been near impossible without a fan.
I got a fan now I will print the fan holder thanks
What fan did you use? I am using one and don't really notice a difference. I bought this fan to use with it;
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009NQ … &psc=1
alexandernadeau wrote:hey guys,
let me just ask a silly question while were on the topic of fans... where should we place them? you cannot really get one very close to the bed due to the carriage moving around the enclosure too much.
any ideas?
alex
Print one of these http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:529837 and stick a 40mm fan on it.
I find it very effective. It's helped me print a few things that would have been near impossible without a fan.
What voltage does it use ? Mine is 12V.
I use it for printing small/thin parts which would otherwise come out a mess.
You may also need to reduce the printing speed as low as 10mm/sec to get good results.
12v
12v should be fine.
Like I say, try playing with the print speed also.
I will try that. I am trying to print that advent calender tree on thingiverse and am having trouble with the boxes warping at the corners. I am using stock firmware and software but octave green filament.
I tried lowering the bed temp to the point that it almost doesn't stick and I still get some warping.
Doesn't seem to matter if the door is closed or open.
Maybe it is just the green filament.
Yeah, some filament seems to stick better than others.
I use kapton tape which gives very good adhesion. If I'm still having trouble with a part lifting, I use a bit of glue too and that more or less guarantees the part will stick.
I was having great results with glue stick, then cleaned the bed and tried painters tape and it wasn't working as well as the glue stick so I went back. The last couple advent boxes have turned out ok, I just put a crap load of glue on the bed between each print.
So, I've had my Da Vinci Duo for about a month now and I initially had a huge problem with warping and splitting. I 'fixed it' by becoming better at applying the glue.
But - some background: I'm an engineer, and I started 3D printing from the other direction: using a Dimension Elite in a R&D Lab at a multi-national technology company. I'm now running a virtual company from my home and I figured learning how to use the most inexpensive 'off the shelf' printer on the market might just help me understand a few things . . . and save me some serious bucks. I didn't want to go the DIY route.
I'm doing product development, so warping is a big deal to me. The Dimension Elite has a heated chamber with many fans, and the temperature of that chamber is held evenly over the whole chamber.
The Da Vinci doesn't come close to being able to do that out of the box. The layer sticking to the bed is not as hot as the plastic coming out of the extruder - that's kind of obvious. Another obvious thing is that there is a hole in the top of the printer above the extruder. It's the 'handle' in the 'door' that is the top of the printer. Heat rises, so the temperature coming off of the extruder goes out that opening.
During the first layers, the temperature change between the bed and the soft ABS coming out of the HOT extruder (yeah, I'm ONLY talking about ABS) is from Warm (at the heated bed) to HOT (at the extruder). Nearly all of my parts are solid throughout, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the part you are printing is not going to be the same temperature throughout. It's constantly cooling. As it cools, it contracts. The material on the bed stays hotter than the sides of your part as the part gets thicker . . . and the top of the part is always going to be the hottest place as the very hot ABS comes out of the extruder and quickly cools and shrinks.
From my engineering background, whenever you have a difference in temperature within a solid, the stresses between different parts of the solid that are cooling and shrinking at different rates is going to cause warping. So it was no surprise that the ends of a long solid part would pull up from the bed. During one early print, I left the front door open and the part curled up like a banana . . . starting with the front of the part closest to the open door pulling away very quickly.
With one part, with a minimum of glue, I found that as soon as I opened the front door, the part lifted up from the front of the bed as cool air entered the chamber through the open door. YIKES!
What I've found is using low density helps a lot. The many, many spaces inside the print help keep the temperature more uniform and relieve some of the tension between layers that are at different temperatures through the build.
I think adding fans are a great idea, since they can circulate the air throughout the box and provide for a more uniform environment.
I would think that the right idea is to have multiple small fans turning slowly to mix the air and allow the sources of heat (the bed, the moving extruder head) to raise the temperature of the enclosure to help keep the air inside more uniform and allow the cooling process throughout the part to slow down.
Just my two cents.
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