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Topic: Print the legend

the documentary into the 3d printing industry premieres today on net flix.
Has anyone else sat though it.

Disappointing to learn that stratasys bought out makerbot and all the founders are gone.  3d systems is suing form labs.
A shame the Goliaths are attacking the little guy . but business can be brutal I guess.
Tin

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Re: Print the legend

Tin Falcon wrote:

3d systems is suing form labs.
A shame the Goliaths are attacking the little guy . but business can be brutal I guess.
Tin

I think there are alternate ways of looking at it. 25 years ago, 3D Systems was the little guy. It invented 3D printing. Were it not for its invention and its expired patents, you would not have a 3D printer in your home. It's worth noting the protection of intellectual property is rooted in our Constitution at Article I, Section 8:

"The Congress shall have Power To... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"

Patents are only good for 20 years and you'll pay over ten grand in renewal fees to keep a patent active for that long. 3D Systems went from being a little guy to being a big guy through hard work and innovation. Anyone possessed of the imagination, skill and knowledge to invent a marketable product may do the same.

Formlabs sought to steal intellectual property belonging to someone else. That doesn't make them "little guys", it makes them thieves. Seriously, what incentive would anyone have to invent wonderful new things if any drunk working out of their mother's basement could steal their inventions and make off with all the profits from their hard work, investements and genius?

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Re: Print the legend

Big meh at IP.
If progress is our goal open source is our method.

This is a crowd funding thing that I'm running: http://www.gofundme.com/bvi140 It's for pretty selfish reasons tongue

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Re: Print the legend

The point here was to ask if anyone here has seen the movie and there  thoughts on it.
As far as Intellectual property verses open source  I see advantages and disadvantages for both.
The idea of copying another's Idea ether legally or illegally has been around since the dawn of time i expect.
when people pretty much made all there own necessities of life and worked as a community I do not think any one cared if someone made another  fork  spoon or knife like the one they just made. As time when on and trades were formed the guilds would keep trade secrets to themselves.   
Once the industrial was in full swing the power to manufacture was mostly transferred to a handful of people .
the PC revolution put the power of computing and the power of economical printing into the hands of the   middle class.
3 D printing is beginning to put the power of manufacturing onto a table top  in peoples homes. Automated manufacturing in the home.  Making one of kind production once again cost/time effective. I hope to see this continue . And  Ii hope to see the day when a 3-d printer capable of printing metal  of various types sits on my desk or in my shop. . Or maybe by then there will be a plastic that outperforms the metals we have today.
I guess it was disappointing that the movie focused more on the dark history than the bright future of 3D printing.
In there defense there job was to document the history. And history is written every day as the future unfolds.


So thoughts comments about the movie?
Tin

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

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Re: Print the legend

Serin wrote:

Big meh at IP.
If progress is our goal open source is our method.

Sure.

Naturally that half percent of the population capable of original thought will be glad to work for nothing so the unwashed masses of subnormal intelligence can have lots of free stuff.

It reminds me of the old joke where the kid goes to his Dad and asks, "What are we here for?"

His Dad responds, "To help others.

The kid thinks about it for a minute, then asks, "Dad, what are the others here for?"

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Re: Print the legend

Cough.. Elon Musk...

This is a crowd funding thing that I'm running: http://www.gofundme.com/bvi140 It's for pretty selfish reasons tongue

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Re: Print the legend

Serin wrote:

Big meh at IP.
If progress is our goal open source is our method.


As a business owner and engineer:

+1.

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Re: Print the legend

Don9mm wrote:
Serin wrote:

Big meh at IP.
If progress is our goal open source is our method.

Sure.

Naturally that half percent of the population capable of original thought will be glad to work for nothing so the unwashed masses of subnormal intelligence can have lots of free stuff.

Nikola Tesla invented AC electrical systems, motors, and wireless communication. He died a poor man.

The truly bright don't need financial motivation.

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Re: Print the legend

Formlabs sought to steal intellectual property belonging to someone else. That doesn't make them "little guys", it makes them thieves. Seriously, what incentive would anyone have to invent wonderful new things if any drunk working out of their mother's basement could steal their inventions and make off with all the profits from their hard work, investements and genius?

Was there some technological innovation that happened in the last 10 years that made it possible for an SLA printer to be produced in a desktop size for $3000?  If not, why didn't 3D Systems make one, rather than continue producing $100k printers?  The only reason we have consumer 3D printing is because patents expired and others were able to "steal" the technology and make it accessible to the masses, a market the original inventors were not interested in, or even dreamed existed.   Now the inventions they made 30 years ago are the Hot New Thing.  Why wasn't 3D printing on the hype curve when all of their IP was still protected?  What were their stock prices doing back then?

20 years is an eternity for an inventor to hold a monopoly and make their fortune these days.  It provides plenty of time for the technology to stagnate in the hands of a few when it could be improving by orders of magnitude in the hands of millions of "thieves".

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Re: Print the legend

Exactly.

Plus, there's a middle ground between a patent and open source:

Trade secret.

Any "drunks in their mothers basements" (that is getting really repetitive by the way, for someone that trumpets about the importance of originality) still have to do all of the same work. Keeping the recipe a secret forces everyone to do the same work, but at least allows them to try.

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Re: Print the legend

IanJohnson wrote:

20 years is an eternity for an inventor to hold a monopoly and make their fortune these days.  It provides plenty of time for the technology to stagnate in the hands of a few when it could be improving by orders of magnitude in the hands of millions of "thieves".

Were it not for his genius, you wouldn't have it at all. Not in the last 20 years or in the 100 years after that.

He went into a market WHERE THERE WAS NO MARKET.

The market you speak of was created by HIM. The current demand is the direct result of a quarter century of hard work, innovation and literally billions spent on R&D, sales and marketing.

You'll have to pardon me for failing to convert to the currently tendy entitlement society mindset.

All human progress can be attributed to a microscopic cross section of the population. Were it not for them, we'd all still be living in mud huts, spending most of our days on the brink of starvation, while scratching the lice infesting our armpits.

You're impressed with the technology. I don't blame you a bit. I am too. The part I don't get is why you wouldn't look on the inventor as, if not some kind of hero, at least as someone who deserved to get paid. Just say, "Thank you, man." and move on. Again, if it weren't for him, you wouldn't have the technology at all, under any circumstances, in any timeframe. You would still be waiting for someone of equal genius to do exactly what he did, without any awareness of what you were missing.

You strike me as a reasonably intelligent person. Could you build a 3D printer and related computer code, from the ground up, from scratch, with ZERO prior art to work from? Could you have done it at the stage computers were in a quarter century ago?

I know I couldn't. I'm just glad someone did. If he was paid well for his invention, more power to him. He got paid and now we all benefit from his work.

I don't get it. I really don't. How could anyone have a problem with that?

12 (edited by Serin 2014-09-28 22:50:41)

Re: Print the legend

I don't give two flying fraks about money.
That's why..

Society, to me, is an endeavour based on the idea that we can and must make the future a better place to live than the past.
If money was the be all and end all of that process then why the hell aren't we living in a utopian future where everyone has access to everything they need or might want?
NC is an excellent way of promoting innovation whilst retaining rights, as evidenced by Tesla Motors recent release of technology that might well prevent further slide into climate change.

I could provide links to about 100 papers I've used in my uni research on the very subject of open source technologies.
But they're not free unless you're with an institution.

We live at the very precipice of a revolution(ok, maybe a bit overblown) that might just change the world.
The internet has given access to information like never before in Human history with no regard to peoples property, open technologies are a natural extension of that movement.
I believe that knowledge and thus technology should belong to all Humanity.
As the needs of the many.... Outweigh the needs of the few.

This is a crowd funding thing that I'm running: http://www.gofundme.com/bvi140 It's for pretty selfish reasons tongue

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Re: Print the legend

Well at least SD got a 2 second spot in the film even it was only to show Sam who used to work for Makerbot.

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14 (edited by Hazer 2014-09-28 13:28:57)

Re: Print the legend

Don9mm wrote:
IanJohnson wrote:

20 years is an eternity for an inventor to hold a monopoly and make their fortune these days.  It provides plenty of time for the technology to stagnate in the hands of a few when it could be improving by orders of magnitude in the hands of millions of "thieves".

Were it not for his genius, you wouldn't have it at all. Not in the last 20 years or in the 100 years after that.

He went into a market WHERE THERE WAS NO MARKET.

The market you speak of was created by HIM. The current demand is the direct result of a quarter century of hard work, innovation and literally billions spent on R&D, sales and marketing.

You'll have to pardon me for failing to convert to the currently tendy entitlement society mindset.

All human progress can be attributed to a microscopic cross section of the population. Were it not for them, we'd all still be living in mud huts, spending most of our days on the brink of starvation, while scratching the lice infesting our armpits.

You're impressed with the technology. I don't blame you a bit. I am too. The part I don't get is why you wouldn't look on the inventor as, if not some kind of hero, at least as someone who deserved to get paid. Just say, "Thank you, man." and move on. Again, if it weren't for him, you wouldn't have the technology at all, under any circumstances, in any timeframe. You would still be waiting for someone of equal genius to do exactly what he did, without any awareness of what you were missing.

You strike me as a reasonably intelligent person. Could you build a 3D printer and related computer code, from the ground up, from scratch, with ZERO prior art to work from? Could you have done it at the stage computers were in a quarter century ago?

I know I couldn't. I'm just glad someone did. If he was paid well for his invention, more power to him. He got paid and now we all benefit from his work.

I don't get it. I really don't. How could anyone have a problem with that?

Plastic Extrusion has been around for over a hundred years. Extrusion principle itself for much longer than that.

Environmentally controlled chamber technology has been around for thousands of years (or else there would not be bread).

CNC movement, applied to hundreds of manufacturing processes around the world for 50 years.

Nothing HE did was a f***ing marvel of science. HE took common practice and applied it to additive manufacturing. Just because he did it first means the rest of the world cannot touch it for 20 years? Lets apply that idiocy another way:

Some shmuck moved phone technology from wired to wireless. Are you saying you would rather have it that not a single manufacturer other the first one would allow cell phone market to even begin until 2001? Is that 'fair'? Half the #$%^^ you take for granted would still not have been marketed yet under your theory.

the fact is, these patent laws are no more than ways for the over-priced conglomerates to create monopolies. If it were not, then anyone with an idea should be able to patent it first and keep it, without paying a ****ing dime. But no, the rules are you pay exorbitant amounts to publish your idea, and you MUST market it in a year or two to keep it. Does that really protect the inventor? BS! It favors the money. The rules are clearly in favor of big corporations, and requires tens of thousands for the upstart just to hold an ethereal 'right' over what they created. And quite frankly, if you ever read these rules, it takes very little effort for a conglomerate to 'steal' IP away from a small company simply by stating a lie that they had done it first and drown the little guy in millions in legal fees.

So get off your high horse, your not convincing anyone here that HE has the right to stagnate a market to create an over-priced monopoly, especially for 'inventing' squirting a liquid in a predictable manner. Not a single part of FDM technology is an original thought.

Here's my quote about a similar situation where a company is currently applying for a patent on turbo button theory on a game controller: "Its a shame that commerce has reached the point where money can buy legality, rather than evidence and ethics. But there you have it."

Now excuse me while I go patent the internet and sue everyone for billions for using my idea without my permission.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

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Re: Print the legend

Here's my 2 cents...

I believe in OS technologies; as Ian pointed out, significant leaps and bounds will result when an idea or technology is released to the masses; and more good will come to this planet as a result.

As for Patents, my guess is the percentage of very strong and well written protection is somewhere in the single digits.  In the course of my day job, we develop 100's of products a year in the Durable Goods sector.  During our patent and Legal reviews, we often come across active Patents of which we would infringe if we proceeded...so what do we do?  Alter our design to not infringe.  It is VERY easy and VERY legal!

So, Patents IMHO are not that valuable (even though I have 23 to my name).  What IS valuable are Trade Secrets.  They last forever and since you don't publish them, no one can work around them.  I am aware of many trade secrets at various factories of ours around the globe, and believe me, our advantage in manufacturing due to these trade secrets are what keeps us competitive day in and day out.  Competitors can't even come close to our manufactured costs.

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Re: Print the legend

I'm on the other side of this intellectual property / patent debate.  As an aspiring inventor with several products fully prototyped and waiting for God knows what until I get off my arse and do something with them.  My biggest fear is that I will put out my product and some established massive company will just start making them and selling them.  If I'm supposed to just give away my thoughts, why would I take the time to invent or innovate?  What would drive progress if not financial gain?  Elon Musk is a personal hero of mine and at a certain point once you're richer than you can ever dream sure you can give away your IP to the masses for the greater good, but remember he didn't do that with any other ventures that made him a billionaire.  The only thing stopping me is the cost to protect my IP, and the knowledge of how to get it into the hands of someone that is willing to do the manufacturing and distribution.  If you told me today that nothing I come up with will ever make me a dime, and I can't benefit in any way from my ideas.  I will shut down my mind and just work my 9-5 and get my paycheck marching towards retirement. 

Remember not every idea will change the world and solve the problems of the earth.  Sometimes it's just a golf tee with a naked woman carved into it that makes someone a bunch of money. 

As far as trade secrets, that only applies in a very narrow selection of innovation.  An experienced person in any field can duplicate just about any process or product in that field.

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Re: Print the legend

cmetzel, I don't think you realize that a published patent does more to give away your idea than it does to protect it...

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Re: Print the legend

elmoret wrote:
Serin wrote:

Big meh at IP.
If progress is our goal open source is our method.


As a business owner and engineer:

+1.

This frankly surprises me.  Someone could come along and copy part for part the filastruder and sell it for cheaper than you and you wouldn't have any problem with that?  I'm not talking about now, but say one of the beta testers worked for a manufacturing company that had sourcing and capabilities to come out with the filastruder before your kickstarter went live and sold them for 75% of your price because they used offshore assembly?  I don't believe you patented yours because it was a natural progression of existing technology it probably wouldn't have been granted anyway, but wouldn't that have bothered you to lose out on the money that was made and experience from the kickstarter and beyond?   I have some prototypes that are potentially lucrative, but upon seeing them existing companys could be producing them within weeks much faster than I could get a supply chain and tooling and distribution in place.  Without patent protection.  I might as well just hand it over to them.

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Re: Print the legend

elmoret wrote:

cmetzel, I don't think you realize that a published patent does more to give away your idea than it does to protect it...

The patent for me would be protection for long enough to sell the rights to my idea.  I'm not interested in being a manufacturer.  I have too many other obligations that are more important to me to be chasing around a 90 hour a week company startup.  The company that I license to could chase around all the legal issues. 

First to market and best to market play an important role, but some of the products I have are just changes to existing products that take it in a different direction.  It would get copied and stolen before I could get the first one for sale.  It's the very reason I bought the 3d printer in the first place so I didn't have to trust my IP to a prototype shop.

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Re: Print the legend

cmetzel wrote:

surprises me

I would have welcomed it. Most of my competition has actually purchased a Filastruder, presumably with the intent of reverse engineering it. I have seen several aspects of my design show up in the designs of my competition. That is fine by me. To be honest most of the value in Filastruder is the name (which didn't hold much value in the beta stage) and the list of my suppliers (which is a trade secret, not patentable). I mean, some of my competition has stolen pictures (of Filastruder accessories) off my website - thievery is not limited to design aspects.

For me, making more than I need to keep a roof over my head is just icing on the cake. I'd rather see innovation and new ideas from other people than I would more dollars in my bank account.

I say this as someone that does work under NDA, having a lot to do with patents and very cutting edge technology - work that has nothing to do with 3D printing. Of course my personal views are not always reflected by those I work with in industry, and I respect the desires of those who I consult for - but I'm well versed on this from all angles.

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Re: Print the legend

cmetzel wrote:
elmoret wrote:

cmetzel, I don't think you realize that a published patent does more to give away your idea than it does to protect it...

The patent for me would be protection for long enough to sell the rights to my idea.  I'm not interested in being a manufacturer.  I have too many other obligations that are more important to me to be chasing around a 90 hour a week company startup.  The company that I license to could chase around all the legal issues. 

First to market and best to market play an important role, but some of the products I have are just changes to existing products that take it in a different direction.  It would get copied and stolen before I could get the first one for sale.  It's the very reason I bought the 3d printer in the first place so I didn't have to trust my IP to a prototype shop.

Again, it won't help you much here. A patent is basically a blueprint on how to recreate the idea/product. They have far more dollars for patent attorneys than you, so it would be no problem for them to use the patent as a blueprint (once you drew attention to it), then find the loopholes (with their $$$ lawyers), and move on without paying for your IP. Happens all the time in industry.

If you wanted to sell to a manufacturer, you would want a NDA and/or a non-compete, not a patent.

Living in a world of paranoia and fear as you describe must be crippling!

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Re: Print the legend

It's often said that ideas aren't worth very much.  All the value and the vast majority of the work comes from turning the idea into a finished, manufacturable product, marketing it and selling it.  Without doing that, you won't likely have the capital required to enforce your patents.

Probably the only real way to make money from ideas and patents without manufacturing them yourself is to sell the rights to a patent troll who will give you a cut of the settlements when they go after other people who had the same idea and tried to make something from it.

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Re: Print the legend

It very much is crippling.  It doesn't stop my innovation, but it does stop my profiting from my innovation. 

I have more than enough money to keep the roof over my head and live a comfortable lifestyle, but it requires that I work and that my wife works to afford it.  My primary motivation is that my wife not have to work, and eventually that I don't have to work in the current job at the current hours that I'm working at.  Left to my own devices I can come up with 3-4 product ideas a day that I would say better than 50% of them are received well by those I trust to disclose them too.  And at least 25% of which they enthusiastically say you need to do something with that, or at least make me one so I can use it right now.  I use 3 inventions of mine every weekend when I golf, I sleep on a pillow that I designed and sewed myself that is unlike any other on the market for overweight stomach sleepers, I have so many things ready to go fully prototyped working and debugged but don't know how to take one step further without being ripped off.  For those of us without the drive or means to start a business and be first to market, what is the option to make money from my concepts? 

Chris

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Re: Print the legend

IanJohnson wrote:

It's often said that ideas aren't worth very much.  All the value and the vast majority of the work comes from turning the idea into a finished, manufacturable product, marketing it and selling it.  Without doing that, you won't likely have the capital required to enforce your patents.

Probably the only real way to make money from ideas and patents without manufacturing them yourself is to sell the rights to a patent troll who will give you a cut of the settlements when they go after other people who had the same idea and tried to make something from it.

You guys paint a really bleak picture for my future.

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Re: Print the legend

The other problem with selling the IP to an existing manufacturer is that sometimes they buy the rights and sit on them so that nobody else produces a disruptive product to their existing line. 

American Dream is on its last legs.