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Topic: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

Hi guys been thinking of buying my 1st printer and was wondering how hard it would be to build your own as in buying a D.I.Y kit?

I can build a computer but never done or seen a 3d printer built before so is this for a newbie to the world of 3d printers?

was thinking I'd like to print in duel colour is this harder to do? not played around with the printing software side of things yet.

I would appreciate if you could if you could try to put any replies in layman's terms as much as possible so I can understand lol wink

I'm in the UK so any advice you can give me on buying my 1st printer would be great smile

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

It certainly ain't easy, but possible. Check out this guy's work, it's awesome:

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/7531/diy … 3dprinter/

Two SD3s - One with Sang, One with Printrboard, Fans on control boards!!! Do this!!!, Dual Glass Beds, Blacklight "EZ Bake Oven" - Improves Ambient Temp, Sketchup, Repetier, Slic3r. Graphic Designer & Makeshift Engineer. Drinks Lots and Lots and Lots of Rum.

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

I've been reading a lot about DIY delta printers. I don't know if they are easier to build, but they certainly look cooler in operation :-).

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

Hi guys been thinking of buying my 1st printer and was wondering how hard it would be to build your own as in buying a D.I.Y kit?

Why do want to build your own ? If you want to save money probably not worth it if it is to better understand how it is put together and how to maintain and  troubleshoot  then you should consider it.

I can build a computer but never done or seen a 3d printer built before so is this for a newbie to the world of 3d printers?

If you can assemble a computer you likely can handle assembling a printer kit. but do your homework before buying.

was thinking I'd like to print in duel colour is this harder to do?

To print in two colors  you either need to stop the print and resume with another color or more practical use a dual extruder.
yes more difficult.

not played around with the printing software side of things yet.

So download it look at it read the  manuals.
Tin

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

The biggest problem with 3D printers at present is it is an industry occupied by drunks working out of their mother's basements.

Things are about where they were back when Steve Jobs started kicking cows out of the barn so he'd have a place to build computers and Bill Gates really did live in his mom's basement, while smoking boat loads of pot.

With 3D printers, the problem is made worse by the fact most of the parts needed to build a printer are made by slaves in China, who don't have any incentive to build quality parts. There's also a lot of outright, predatory price gouging going. There's no plausible reason why a top quality printer should cost much more than $300. There just plain isn't anything about the component parts that would make the cost of actual materials much over $60-$80 at the wholesale, bulk purchase level. At present, you go in knowing you'll pay an outrageous premium on just about everything you need.

I got into 3D printing for one reason. I needed a way to prototype a patent pending device I'm working on. That makes it more of a business necessity than a personal luxury, otherwise it would likely have been quite a few more years before I got into it, in a future where the industry should be in less of a state of anarchy.

Over the course of a several month period, I bought and returned four different defective printers. The best of the bunch was semi functional for about a week before the electronics failed altogether. That one was based on the open source Hadron Ord Bot platform. These guys have three different kits available from $419 to $699 depending on how complete and/or assembled it is:

http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.co … er-machine

I paid a little less on sale a few months ago, for the partially assembled option, without electronics. I don't know that the Ord Bot is the best platform, but I think it's a good one and I've never seen anyone say anything bad about it. As near as I can tell, it seems to be very solid and is capable of producing good quality prints.

The motors the kit comes with are 46 ounce as I remember from doing some research on them. I swapped those out for some 76 ounch motors available on the same site for $8.99 each. I haven't had a chance to test them yet, so can't offer an opinion on them one way or the other.

The kit I got was fairly easy to put together, although I had to make a run to the local hardware store to pick up a few over priced metric machine screws.

The hardest part I've found so far is NOTHING comes with instructions. Your computer building skills are likely to come in less handy than your ability to do online research to track down the information you need from dozens of incomplete and not necessarily reliable resources. Just figuring out what parts you need can be a very frustrating challenge. There are electronic "kits" available, that are often incomplete and frequently not as described. From my own experience, I'd recommend avoiding SainSmart as much as possible. Customer service is terrible, the kits aren't as advertised, the parts aren't fully assembled and parts needed to complete the assembly are missing.

I started out going with the Ultimaker 1.5.7 board and after getting two defective boards in a row, have abandoned that idea. There are a variety of different boards available and all of them seem to have their devoted fans. On giving up on the Ultimaker board, I decided to go with the RAMPS 1.4 as it looks like it'll do everything I need it to do, and it seems to be the one that has the largest following and the most documentation available. You can find tons of different offerings in a wide price range on Amazon.com for just about anything 3D printing related, including boards and other electronics. I also found Pololu to be a valuable resource for wires and other misc. stuff. Their website is here:

http://www.pololu.com/

Their customer service is great, their prices are fairly competitive and they don't stick it to you on postage for small orders. Unfortunately, 3D printing is kind of a sideline for them, so they're definitely not a single source for everything you'll need.

I'm probably in the minority in not being a fan of duel extruders. Everything I've read suggests they're a pain to set up and keep calibrated. More than that, though, I have a hard time seeing where they're all that useful a feature. Every layer has to be the same color, so I think the question one has to ask is how many things you think you might print where a banding effect with different colors would be a big plus. IMO, the applications are pretty limited, but I won't say it isn't something you should rule out if you have applications where it would be especially useful.

IMO, the ability to print from a SD card is a more important consideration.

I'm about three months more experienced than you are, so feel free to take all of the above with a grain of salt. You wanted layman's terms, which is all I really have available to work with anyhow. I still don't have a working printer as I'm still waiting on parts, and it has been more than a little frustrating tracking down essential information and components. Hopefully it won't be too much longer, but I think it'd be fair to say that if you're looking for instant gratification, building your own is not the way to find it. If you have a patient side you're able to tap into when necessary and enjoy learning new things, it can be interesting.

About the best suggestion I could make is to do lots of research on the different options and maybe put more focus on building a functional printer as simply as possible for your first project, rather than getting too carried away with a lot whistles and bells.

If you decide to buy a printer instead, while I don't think any of them are good, the one to avoid at all costs is the garbage put out by XYZPrinting. The product is pure junk, the company is run by crooks and it is virtually impossible to ever get one to function properly without pretty much rebuilding it and hacking the daylights out of it. If there's an advantage to building your own, it's that you'll probably end up spending as much time working on it as you would if you bought one slapped together by a drunk in his mother's basement, and at least when it's finished, you'll know how to fix it.

DISCLAIMER: One man's opinion, subject to change without notice, and not intended to be critical of those holding views different from my own.

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

Don9mm wrote:

There just plain isn't anything about the component parts that would make the cost of actual materials much over $60-$80 at the wholesale, bulk purchase level. At present, you go in knowing you'll pay an outrageous premium on just about everything you need.

What is your experience designing and sourcing parts for a product?

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

elmoret wrote:
Don9mm wrote:

There just plain isn't anything about the component parts that would make the cost of actual materials much over $60-$80 at the wholesale, bulk purchase level. At present, you go in knowing you'll pay an outrageous premium on just about everything you need.

What is your experience designing and sourcing parts for a product?

Apparently orders of magnitude greater than yours. That's aside from the fact there is virtually nothing in the way of "designing" as far as printers are concerned. It's all open source, buddy. R&D is as close to zero as it gets. I'll help you out a bit as your question appears to express substantial ignorance.

Here's a complete RAMPS set up, at full retail, ordered directly from China, with shipping included, for $32.95:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-Meg … 27133.html

Typical retail markup is 200%, which would put the wholesale cost at sixteen bucks. Toss in 5 motors at three or four bucks each, a five dollar headbet and ten bucks worth of low budget hardware. Total cost of materials should run you under $60 at the wholesale level. Minimally skilled, assembly line style factory labor will about double that. With full retail markup, retail cost is under $300, just as I said.

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

Don9mm wrote:
elmoret wrote:
Don9mm wrote:

There just plain isn't anything about the component parts that would make the cost of actual materials much over $60-$80 at the wholesale, bulk purchase level. At present, you go in knowing you'll pay an outrageous premium on just about everything you need.

What is your experience designing and sourcing parts for a product?

Apparently orders of magnitude greater than yours. That's aside from the fact there is virtually nothing in the way of "designing" as far as printers are concerned. It's all open source, buddy. R&D is as close to zero as it gets. I'll help you out a bit as your question appears to express substantial ignorance.

Here's a complete RAMPS set up, at full retail, ordered directly from China, with shipping included, for $32.95:

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1pcs-Meg … 27133.html

Typical retail markup is 200%, which would put the wholesale cost at sixteen bucks. Toss in 5 motors at three or four bucks each, a five dollar headbet and ten bucks worth of low budget hardware. Total cost of materials should run you under $60 at the wholesale level. Minimally skilled, assembly line style factory labor will about double that. With full retail markup, retail cost is under $300, just as I said.

I don't even know where to start.

9 (edited by sealover1 2014-09-23 04:22:16)

Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

seems like buying a ready built one is the way to go for newbies like myself and learn how to fix it as I go along, from what I been reading on lots of forums they all seem to need a lot of work to keep in working order so can someone give me any advice on buying a printer ready made please? don't want to spend an arm and a leg to start with say around £500 give or take a buck to get me going not sure what that is in $$$

not sure if its worth buying from outside the uk in case the thing keep messing up and needs to be returned. by sound of it from what I've read up they do seem to break down or clog up a lot, maybe ebay is the way as I'm protected

what free software would you guys recommend? just downloaded blender and been looking up some tuts on you tube and will start playing around with that today but will download a few I think to see which suits me best

cheers for the comments guys keep um coming please and Don9 keep me updated on how ya get on m8 be interesting to know how it goes wink

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

hey elmoret never knew it was you who designed the  Filastruder I emailed you just over a year ago asking about it well impressive bit of kit

(3d printing got put on hold due to the big D with my then women lol )

anyways back to wanting to learn all about this now smile

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

You know what, I will take a crack at this. I'll start off with your assumptions, followed by the truth. For reference I've been in 3D printing a few years now, I own several 3D printers, I designed the Filastruder, I ran a successful Kickstarter campaign raising $212k, shipped all kits ahead of schedule, and have shipped over a thousand kits to date. I have also started a business in the past and sold it to my partner who is still in business to this day - it dealt with small electromechanical controllers. I just finished up my PhD this past fall, and have designed over a dozen products, a few of which are under NDA. I have worked as a consultant in 3D printing, reviewing the BoMs of other people's printers and connecting designers with manufacturers on 4 different continents, some of which I speak with on a daily basis. Though my PhD is in Mechanical Engineering, I do quite a bit of PCB layout and firmware design, both in and out of 3D printing.

Now that my experience is on the table (by the way, you never actually shared yours), lets get started.

No R&D dollars because open source

For starters, much of what is "open source" is released under a -NC license, which means that it cannot be used in a commercial product. Furthermore, much of what is available as open source is incomplete, outdated, or otherwise lacking. I assure you there is no 3D printer designer/manufacturer that is able to run their business without spending time and energy on R&D. To imply otherwise is insulting and quite frankly a sign of ignorance.

AliExpress/Chinese boards and Chinese sourcing in general.

I am very familiar with those Chinese controller boards, I own a few of them. Lets get started with a list of issues:

  • Piss-poor solder job, frequently bridged pads and traces.

  • Undersized traces, frequently resulting in fires. I can provide examples if you wish.

  • Counterfeit components. We'll look at the costs of the parts in a moment, but roughly half of the parts on a Chinese controller in the price range you provided are counterfeit, and do not work properly.

  • Underspecced FETs, with excessive Rds and insufficient cooling.

That's enough for now. Suffice it to say, those boards are not suitable for anyone, much less a manufacturer hoping to maintain a defect rate under 50%. Furthermore, they are a fire hazard waiting to happen - if you can even get them powered up.

You're also quite wrong about how the Chinese price things. I assure you that even if you asked to order 10,000 of those boards (keep in mind this would make you the world's #1 consumer of RAMPS boards - volume is that low, which we'll discuss in a moment), the price would not be $16. I would estimate it to be $25-27, before shipping. Because Chinese labor is so cheap, there is nearly zero reason for them to charge more for qty1 vs qty 1000. It is not like here in the US.

Genuine component pricing: (All of this assumes 3,000+ quantities, and comes from Digikey)
- A4988: $6
- ATMEGA1280: $9.50
- FETs: $1.5

That's $17 already, before counting all of the other components (~$7), or LCD ($5), or PCB fab, or PCBA (assembly). At quantity 3000, I would expect PCB fab/PCBA to add about $8 to the total at a reputable location. Keep in mind this will cost a total of roughly $110,000, not something many 3D printing startup companies can spend on electronics alone, so they have to drop quantities and prices increase. Lets call it an even $40, and I assure you this is quite optimistic.

Looks like your "$16 in bulk" bit doesn't hold water. Lets keep the train rolling.

Steppers for $3

I have personally sourced steppers. If you have a source for quality steppers with quality bearings for $3, let me know and I'll order ten thousand. Quality steppers in quantities of a thousand or so will run $7-10, depending on whether we're talking NEMA14 or 17. Lets say $30 here, total. Up to $70 so far.

The rest of your errors

No idea what a "headbet" is, but I assume you meant heatbed. Nice that your mythical 3D printer has a heat bed, looks like we'll need a 200 watt power supply now. We'll stick with your $5 heat bed, though I promise you anywhere you can get heat beds for $5 qty1000, the MTBF will be measured in months, not years. Up to $75 now.

I guess "ten bucks of low budget hardware" covers the following:
- Hotend
- Case/chassis
- Belts, gears and/or pulleys
- Bearings
- Hardened precision ground rods
- Brackets, mounts, etc
- UL listed 200w power supplies ($20 min qty 1000)

This is the most exciting part to me. If you can source the above for $10, please let me know ASAP. We'll be market leaders overnight.

Actually, that brings me to a great point. If you're so confident that quality 3D printers can be made on $60 BoMs, why not go into business producing them? Obviously it stands to be quite profitable for you, if your numbers hold. (hint: they don't) You are probably very knowledgable and experienced with many things, but halfway through your first 3D printer build an expert does not make.

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

http://3dprototypesandmodels.com.au/blog-2/

Blog post by someone who made a serious go of Kickstarting a 3D printing company, with a VC waiting to invest.  They found that a one-off printer would be around $300, and raw materials could not push below $180 at a rate of 10 printers/wk for 6 months.  When you are producing printers through a company with commercial space and employees 2x materials is a slim margin.  When you try to make up for the margin by increasing volume, you end up needing to pay for more employees to do the work.   $400 is pretty close to the bottom viable price.  Makibox and Pirate3D tried to push below that, and ran out of money before shipping all (or any) of their orders.

13 (edited by sealover1 2014-09-23 04:58:11)

Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

thanks for that elmoret very enlightening information but not really what I was looking for that's way to advanced for me lol. if ya really feel the need to prove a point to to Don9 why don't you PM him mate lol wink

14 (edited by sealover1 2014-09-23 05:02:43)

Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

I just want to learn right now... the basics would be fine lol smile

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

Nicely put Tim
Just to get the OP back on track! There are several options and this is after all mostly a group of SD owners wink you might seriously take a good look for a nice used SD 2,3 or 4.  With the introduction of their three new models you may find a really nice unit for a very reasonable price.
They are a good solid unit with lots of room for tinkering and mods. Plus lots of users here on the forum willing to help when you need it.

sealover1 wrote:

Hi guys been thinking of buying my 1st printer and was wondering how hard it would be to build your own as in buying a D.I.Y kit?

I can build a computer but never done or seen a 3d printer built before so is this for a newbie to the world of 3d printers?

was thinking I'd like to print in duel colour is this harder to do? not played around with the printing software side of things yet.

I would appreciate if you could if you could try to put any replies in layman's terms as much as possible so I can understand lol wink

I'm in the UK so any advice you can give me on buying my 1st printer would be great smile

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

Thanks wardjr sounds like a plan to be able to upgrade when I know more about printing would be cool

erm whats an SD not come across that term yet

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

SD or Solidoodle 2,3 or 4
They are simple but realistically all 3d printers use the same basic components.
Since Solidoodle announced the three new models I've noticed a lot of these older models popping up for sale.  You might look for a nicely modded SD3 and it will provide you with a nice easy yet very capable printer to get you started.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

thanks wardjr will do that I think.   I,ve heard of Solidoodle (SD) how would I know if one has been modded is it worth my while posting on here if I see one for sale maybe get some buying advice if that's ok?

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

Sure or PM with questions about certain mods.  There aren't many mods out there that I haven't tried so I can help you understand the value of a particular mod.
Happy shopping

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

lol was just pm you wardjr will send you a link as not sure if its aloud on here being new

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

Links are welcome.

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

thanks elmoret

seen this one on ebay seems to be the only one for sale in the UK not sure where to start looking for one tbh unless I keep a search open on there

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SOLIDOODLE-3D … 4adc9ce035

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

will give that one a miss and take wardjr advice that's a bit on the expensive side it seems and will wait for a SD3 to come up for sale

if anyone sees one could you let me know please thanks for all the advice guys at lest I know where to start on buying a printer now which is far more then I knew this morning smile

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

sealover1 wrote:

what free software would you guys recommend? just downloaded blender and been looking up some tuts on you tube and will start playing around with that today but will download a few

I spent several weeks downloading and testing every CAD program I could find -- around 15 in all. I ended up going with Creo Elements Direct Express 4.0, which doesn't have too bad a learning curve with a little help from YouTube videos. You can find the most recent release here:

http://www.ptc.com/product/creo/element … ng/express

It's a scaled down, free version of their commercial product, which is outrageously overpriced. It doesn't seem to get much airplay in the 3D printing community, but I wasn't able to find anything I liked better at any price, including programs costing three grand after a 30 day free trial.

It's geared more toward mechanical design, which might make it less well suited for artsy type stuff, but if you're looking for something reasonably user friendly for working with geometric shapes for export to .stl, it'll get you where you need to go and it's pretty hard to beat free. Sadly, they added a pitch for their high priced stuff to the program on startup, which the older version doesn't have, but if you can tolerate the nonsense, which is only mildly annoying, you might want to give it a try.

On buying a ready made printer, in addition to ebay, I think Amazon also has a UK site with a lot of printer stuff, both ready made and components. In the current state of the art, I'd recommend sticking with places with liberal money back guarantees, as there's a lot of junk floating around. Unfortunately, you're a few years ahead of the kind of mainstream, mass market production that will take the industry out of mother's basement and into real factories. In the mean time, it's mainly a matter of luck if the machine you buy will be built during one of mother's problem child's more sober moments, while they're busy drinking up their Kickstarter funding. A money back guarantee is the most important feature to look for in a 3D printer today.

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Re: 1st printer buy... is it hard to build a printer?

elmoret wrote:

If you're so confident that quality 3D printers can be made on $60 BoMs, why not go into business producing them? Obviously it stands to be quite profitable for you

You can't build them in mother's basement at that price. Therein lies the rub. The first 800 lb. gorillia to enter the market will bankrupt all the drunks building printers in their mother's basements.

10 printers a week? Com'on buddy, get real, those guys are paying full retail on every part they buy.

And, if you have a source for electronics NOT made in China, I'd love to see you post some links.

PS. The link I posted for a $32.95 RAMPS electronic kit included the board, a mega 2560, 5 stepper drivers with heatsinks, a LCD card reader with cables and a breakout board, plus a USB cable and wire ends. When a poster has gone to the trouble of documenting their post from a verifiable source, it might behoove you to check the source before insisting they're wrong.