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Topic: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

(serial # 76, with the upgraded but not beta motor)

My filastruder has been through trials and tribulations, but has generally been pretty reliable.  However, occasionally the output rate slowly declines to nothing, regardless of nozzle or filter.  The barrel is completely insulated with a 2" thick wad of header wrap all the way to the hopper.

It did it a second time, and I'm curious why or how to fix it.  I paired it with a filawinder, and it did the first 1lb in about 3 hours, and took almost 9 hours for the 2nd pound on the spool.  I changed over to my melt-filtered 3mm nozzle thinking it was a clog in the 1.75's filter, but the 3mm nozzle took almost 10 minutes to produce a foot of filament.  I switched back to the 1.75 after cleaning (with fire cool ) and 10 minutes of running produced nothing.  There was no clog, and the screw was spinning fine.  There was plastic all into the barrel, no jams in the hopper.  I was running pure MG94 at 185C.

I've gotten maybe 5kg of plastic out of the machine in its entirety, and I know that's not their lifespan.  What can I do to both fix and prevent this?  The last time I took everything apart, soaked the entire auger in a bath of acetone for 3 days, and blowtorched the barrel clean.  That's a HUGE pain in the ass and I don't want to do it again.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

I'm not sure what would cause that, but I've run 100kgs so far on a single Filastruder without problems. Can you post some photos?

When you assembled, how far was the auger sticking out with the bearing compressed? I wonder if the full barrel wrap is a problem, that is not typical. I also wonder if it has to do with the v1.0 screw, that one had a different helix angle than the rest.

3 (edited by insta 2014-06-22 21:01:31)

Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

I ran the full wrap on your suggestion.  I'll grab some pictures.


100kg?  what the hell do you print?

Well, imgur is being stupid, so in the meantime:
https://plus.google.com/102081251972441 … pQ4PMwe6Kz

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

Full wrap is just experimental, it still hasn't been tested by many people. If I didn't qualify that, my apologies.

I print a lot of hoppers. About 70% of the Filastruder orders are with hopper.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

While, uh, while I appreciate the feedback on the printing question -- do you have any suggestions based on the pictures in the Google+ link?

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

Couldn't really get anything out of the photos. I was interested in the length the auger stuck out beyond the nipple, the hopper/barrel alignment, and the % of the barrel that was insulated, which I couldn't tell from those photos.

Honestly, this issue has come up a couple times with other folks, but never for me personally so its hard to troubleshoot. Twice it was with GITD master batch, and one or two times it was pure MG94. Since I haven't seen it personally, it's hard to contribute much experience. I would probably say to get a brand new barrel/auger - it'd have to be a v1.5, so that'd be barrel/auger/thrust bearing/spacer/hex socket. Email me if that's something you want to pursue, other than that all I have are guesses relating to the heat wrap (I don't use wrap, I just put another piece of fiberglass insulation on mine and the first inch between the barrel and insulation is open) or the auger position relative to the barrel axially.

Also, 1lb in 3 hours seems really fast. How many ipm was that? I'd guess approaching 30ipm at 1.75mm.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

Why blow torch the barrel?  I just soak mine.  A paper towel soaked in acetone and stopper the ends (I used aluminum foil) loosened up the barrel plastic.  It was so easy that I really don't want to run anything I can't clean out with acetone.

I too thought a long melt zone would be beneficial, but after seeing the machine in action, I'm more in favor of as short of melt zone as possible. I think the longer melt zone puts more strain on the motor, especially during start up.  I now just have some aluminum muffler rap, one layer on the nipple and the usual fiberglass around the heating band.  If I'm printing in a drafty area I'll wrap tin foil around the lower half just to keep airflow down to reduce variables.

If the colors being used are getting dispersed (and I've used dry pigment), is there any advantage to using a long melt zone?

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

Tim,

I'd be willing to mail you my filastruder if you'd like to dissect it and see where the flaw lies, especially if it's come up before.

What seems to happen is the plastic cakes on the flutes of the auger, and a separate layer cakes on the inside of the barrel.  There's a small gap between the two (visible in the 1st picture -- maybe 1mm?), and the molten plastic there just smears around and never moves forward.  And, yeah, the first pound was flying.

9 (edited by ericpaulbishop 2014-06-23 14:50:53)

Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

I have also run into this problem, where the filastruder will run great for a while but then slow down dramatically, and doesn't work until I clean out the barrel, so I've thought a lot about what might cause it. I have a v4 kit (upgraded from v3 when my initial assembly partially destroyed itself through my own stupidity/incompetence) with 1.75mm nozzle.

I've found that the thing that seems most likely to trigger the problem is higher temperatures -- you might try extruding at 180 instead of 185 -- and that insulating the barrel (which you say you've already done) does make a huge difference. I recently re-wrapped my whole barrel and that seems to have mitigated the problem. I haven't seen the problem crop up since I did that, after seeing another post on this board.

One possibility -- the picture above shows your insulation right up to the nozzle, but the nozzle is already removed -- how much insulation have you left right over the nozzle itself when you're running the filastruder? The instructions say that the edge of the insulation should be even with the face of the nozzle. I think that's because if the nozzle, where the thermocouple is measuring temperatures, is not insulated, then the temperature being read will be significantly lower than in the melt zone, which may mean that the melt zone is over-heating causing problems.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

insta wrote:

Tim,

I'd be willing to mail you my filastruder if you'd like to dissect it and see where the flaw lies, especially if it's come up before.

I'd be open to this, but it seems a bit wasteful to send the whole 'struder - expensive, and it means you can't 'strude while I'm troubleshooting. I'd propose instead:

I send you a 1.75mm barrel/pipe coupling/auger/thrust bearing/bushing/spacer set/hex socket

You send me what you take off your machine, and I can troubleshoot it when I have time without holding you up.

If you want to do that, shoot me an email through the contact form. I'll pay shipping both ways and for the parts themselves.

One thing to do in the meantime - turn the machine upside down so pellets fall out of the hopper, then take a photo down the hopper. I'm curious if pellets are getting stuck to the screw that far up due to the increased temperature (185C vs. 180C) and full wrap all the way to the hopper.

11 (edited by insta 2014-06-24 06:16:08)

Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

Instead of doing all that helpful debugging and diagnostics, I instead fixed it without a blowtorch.

1) Let it cool to room temperature over several hours.
2) Disable auto-start on motor
3) Heat barrel to 175C and let it soak for an hour
4) Empty all pellets out of hopper area
5) Manually pull plastic goo out of the front with pliers
6) Run Nylon T6 pellets in the machine (175C is way too cold for these Nylon pellets!)
7) Continue to tweeze plastic goo until the dam breaks and all the Nylon pellets show up at the output
8) Attempt to extrude Nylon for shits and giggles
9) Let next batch of MG94 push out failed Nylon test

The Nylon pellets acted as a sort of abrasive to grind the plastic off the auger and walls of the pipe.  Now it extrudes fast enough to get 2RPM on my winder, which keeps up with extrusion.  I'm running 20"/min based on some crude math, and that's on an otherwise stock setup at 180C with a wrapped barrel and melt filter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgVLU80 … e=youtu.be

However, I absolutely will take you up on that offer next time it jams.  Should be in 1kg or so, based on my track record smile

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

To extrude,  there needs to be friction between the barrel and pellets,  and less friction between the pellets and screw so the pellets will resist getting spun and get pushed forward instead.   I wonder if there is a way to lubricate the auger to discourage pellets from sticking to it.   Makerbot users found that they could keep PLA from  sticking and jamming by coating the feed tube with a tiny amount of canola oil.   I wonder if something similar would work here.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

IanJohnson wrote:

To extrude,  there needs to be friction between the barrel and pellets,  and less friction between the pellets and screw so the pellets will resist getting spun and get pushed forward instead.   I wonder if there is a way to lubricate the auger to discourage pellets from sticking to it.   Makerbot users found that they could keep PLA from  sticking and jamming by coating the feed tube with a tiny amount of canola oil.   I wonder if something similar would work here.

Teflon spray maybe? Canola oil at the least is a bad idea, it will spoil esp at elevated temps.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

The pros actually water-cool the screw. Obviously this isn't reasonable at our level, but fully wrapping the barrel might keep the screw too warm.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

It ran overnight with no problems so far, and has kept up the flow rate.  The winder didn't hold up its end of the bargain though and I ended up with ramen and a half-filled spool.  It filled about 50% of a 1kg Ultimachine spool in 6 hours -- so I guess I'm right where I should be.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

20" was way faster than we had ever seen while designing the Filawinder.   I didn't want the motor to be too fast because it would make the movement jerky.   If you keep getting extrusion that fast,  it's easy enough to replace the motor with a faster one.   Look for a 37mm gear motor with the shaft off center,  faster than 33rpm which is what the filawinder uses.  There are plenty on eBay,  usually $12-$15.

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

IanJohnson wrote:

.

You're supposed to be on vacation!

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Re: Filastruder no makey plastic come out :(

Well as fate would have it, this exact problem struck today.

Details:
v1.3
~1500 hours before issue
horizontal
Barrel wrapped 90% with fiberglass pipe insulation after about 1200 hours of use
187C
MG94, had been open to humid atmosphere several weeks
Typically 18-22"/min @1.75mm with a melt filter nozzle
Slowed to a near stop over 5 feet (which took 20 minutes or so)
Nozzle was fine
Tweezed out plastic up to auger tip, ran machine with nozzle off. Auger would not feed. Let cool to ambient, could turn auger in barrel with wrench (~10Nm of force required)

How I fixed it
Remove hotend (barrel+auger+pipe coupling+heater) from Filastruder
Let heat to about 200C
Using a large clamp and steel rod, press out auger. Plug should come with the auger.
Reassemble

I wrestled with it for a while before figuring out the above. Other than heat up time, it only took about 5 minutes to fix.

Photos:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1786359/Teardown/Plug.jpg
This is interesting, because it shows the length of the melt zone. With a fully insulated barrel, it looks like pellets begin to melt about 2" before the auger tip, or about 3" away from the nozzle face.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1786359/Teardown/Plug&Auger.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1786359/Teardown/Screw.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1786359/Teardown/Screw2.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1786359/Teardown/Barrel.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1786359/Teardown/Cutout2.jpg

Barrel and auger seemed to be in pretty good shape for 1500 hours of use.