1 (edited by malek1979m 2014-01-12 18:08:23)

Topic: Extremely slow extrusion

I'm pretty sure I should be getting faster extrusion. I was getting quite a bit faster extrusion when I was extruding horizontally. I have my Filastruder vertically mounted now with a FilaWinder, and in about 20 minutes, I got the results that you see in the picture below. That's about 7". I'm extruding ABS at about 180-188 degrees. When I had it on the desk I had a steady 167.5 degrees and it was doing ok. Actually slower than I would have liked but still significantly faster than what I'm doing now! The thing is, I know ABS requires higher temperatures to melt, but increasing the temperature would probably cause the filament thickness to decrease, no?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60513393/IMG_20140112_125256.jpg

2

Re: Extremely slow extrusion

I'm betting you're getting poor pellet feed. If you mount vertically, pellet feed and hopper design are very important. Can you post a picture of what hopper you're using?

Increasing temperature does decrease diameter.

167C is cold for ABS. I extrude at 180C and get 1.65-1.70mm, though I run horizontally and without a winder.

3

Re: Extremely slow extrusion

It's funny that you should say that, because what I'm doing right this second is totally printing a new pellet feeder because I did have a feeling that the angle of the one I printed was too shallow. I found another individual who remixed the original and made it steeper, so I'm giving that one a try. Thanks for your reply!

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Re: Extremely slow extrusion

Check to see if your barrel might have rotated, taking the opening out of line with the hopper.  Mine is prone to doing that if I let it get down into the 160s.

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Re: Extremely slow extrusion

Good idea Ian, but that wasn't it. I'm pretty such that the issue is pellet feed. When I took off the old pellet feeder I did notice that the pellets were definitely not sliding down the feeder properly,  due to how shallow it is. Especially considering they're ABS pellets, which are not round like PA pellets, making it hard for them to roll.

6

Re: Extremely slow extrusion

Isn't that where someone had suggested stealing your girlfriends vibrator?

Ralph

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Re: Extremely slow extrusion

How did the new hopper work out?

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Re: Extremely slow extrusion

It worked ten times better than the old one. I'm getting way faster speeds, but still not as fast as I would like. I'm getting about 5 to 6 inches per minute at about 170 degrees Celsius. That's giving me an average of 2.8mm filament thickness. if I raise the temperature anymore, it might speed things up a bit but then my filament thickness will decrease. I'm not sure what to do here...

9

Re: Extremely slow extrusion

170 is too cold. What's the harm in losing 100 microns on the diameter? Most "3mm" filament is 2.8mm anyway.

You could redrill the nozzle if you want. 6"/min is not bad for 3mm filament.

10 (edited by malek1979m 2014-01-14 16:00:23)

Re: Extremely slow extrusion

Let me ask you something... Let's say my filament thickness was 2.3mm (for example), and I used it in my 3D printer, and of course assuming I told my slicing software that actual filament thickness was 2.3mm, would this technically not produce the same results as 3mm filament? Or am I sadly mistaken? What if we went to the extreme and fed 1.75mm filament into a 3mm extruder? What would happen, assuming the hobbed bolt was able to push it down? My understanding is that to compensate for the filament being under size, extrusion would speed up.

11

Re: Extremely slow extrusion

malek1979m wrote:

Let me ask you something... Let's say my filament thickness was 2.3mm (for example), and I used it in my 3D printer, and of course assuming I told my slicing software that actual filament thickness was 2.3mm, would this technically not produce the same results as 3mm filament? Or am I sadly mistaken? What if we went to the extreme and fed 1.75mm filament into a 3mm extruder? What would happen, assuming the hobbed bolt was able to push it down? My understanding is that to compensate for the filament being under size, extrusion would speed up.

You are correct, you'd be fine as long as you told the slicing software, and your printer could feed it.

1.75mm is so small relative to a 3mm extruder/hotend that even if the hobbed bolt could push it, it would likely jam in the extruder from the melt back flowing through the gap. 2.5mm and up should be fine in a 3.0mm extruder, though.

Could you post a few pictures of your setup (FIlastruder+Filawinder)? You're one of the early ones, so it'd be great for other users to see how it was implemented. Did the 3.0mm firmware work for you?

12 (edited by malek1979m 2014-01-14 16:40:29)

Re: Extremely slow extrusion

Yes, that makes sense, that the filament would get scrunched up due to heat.
I did upload the new 3mm firmware successfully, and although I did not do an actual test, I did run a "dry test" and it seems like the filament guide is moving the correct distance.
Anyways, yes, I'd be happy to post pictures! (Do not be fooled by the filament cooling fan in the pictures. Although it's there, it has never been used with the vertical setup. Come to think of it, I wonder how it would affect filament thickness. The filament would harden more quickly, thereby reducing the amount of stretch which would decrease filament thickness... Something to try.

PS. The FilaWinder is absolutely brilliant! But I do have one design related suggestion that would improve it when working with 3mm filament. I can see how it would work fine as it is with 1.75mm filament, but due to the added stiffness of 3mm filament, the servo motor is having a heck of a time moving the filament back and forth primarily due to the small distance between the filament guide and and the spool. This distance will only get smaller as the spool fills up. I realize that the servo motor can be moved further away from the spool by a couple inches, but then it would decrease the distance between the filament guide and that bottom plate with the PTFE, which would still make it difficult for the servo motor to move the filament. I plan to increase the size of the base and increase these distances, but just something to keep in mind for those of us that use 3mm filament.

Sorry, some of the pictures came out side ways... I'll fix that when I have some time... gotta go to work.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60513393/IMG_20140113_144304.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60513393/IMG_20140114_111456.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60513393/IMG_20140114_111512.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60513393/IMG_20140114_111531.jpg

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Re: Extremely slow extrusion

I didn't ask about the fan since I saw it in the picture.  I ran without a fan for a long time, because I had to cut it off in the course of experimenting with various vertical setups.  I struggled with getting the filament up to diameter without extruding too cool, until I finally got the fan set back up.   It gave me about a .15 jump in diameter at the same temp.

It also makes it harder to start the loop without getting waves set into the filament since it cools faster.  It's much more forgiving without the fan, so I suggest blocking the airflow until it's running steady, then let the fan cool it.  Adding cooling during extrusion might change the behavior of the loop.  I haven't had much time to run it with the fan yet to find out.

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Re: Extremely slow extrusion

ABS
I got my fan setup in such a way that it never blows on the nozzle. Metal sheet on the side to deflect the flow from the nozzle and another at the bottom to curl up all the flow and direct it on to the filament as much as possible (there is a better way).


So if u run (have just dried for 2hrs) ABS at 175c and at 195c and getting about same diameter at 1.5 to  1.6mm, what does that mean ?
3 1/2 feet above the floor, not perfectly vertical, slightly toward the front
http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af64/garbageplace/FORUMS/DSC00003_zpsae37a9d7.jpg~original

15

Re: Extremely slow extrusion

There is no reason to deflect air from the nozzle. In fact by doing it, you're influencing your melt temperatures - the polymer in the melt zone is running cooler than normal, because you're insulating the nozzle so there's less thermal gradient.

The nozzles are drilled by me such that 1.6mm is the target. The reason for this is that it is a whole lot easier to make a small hole big than a big hole small, and oversize filament jams extruders. Depending on the polymer, temperature, height from the floor, etc, you may have to drill it out larger. There are too many variables for a one size fits all solution.

Also, it might be better if you didn't keep bringing back dead threads, though it is good to see you are searching!