1 (edited by elmoret 2012-10-28 02:33:12)

Topic: Prints curling up

Hello,

I'm having a problem with large prints curling up. I've leveled the bed, and the raft prints great, nice and even, but the print curls off the bed, and worse, curls off itself.

I'm using ABS, at 200deg extruder, 80deg bed. It seems like the extruder hangs out at 190 degrees, not 200.

Tips? The separation mid-print is particularly troublesome. Coming off the bed I can deal with.

Should I run the extruder hotter to get the layers to bond better?

No inline img tags? Really?

Here's a picture:
[img]dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photoa.jpg[/img]

2 (edited by HelmutK 2012-10-28 01:02:12)

Re: Prints curling up

You should be running a bed temp of 100.
Also make sure your "Temperature" settings in Skeinforge are set to 200. Mine were set to 190 by default and even when I manually set the extruder temp to 200 it would drop the extruder temp to 190. After changing the Skeinforge temp settings to 200 now the extruder would stay around 200 unless it was running the cool setting in that part of the print, which I have set to 5 in Skeinforge.
I also had layer separation issues when my extruder temp was 190.

3 (edited by elmoret 2012-10-28 01:08:42)

Re: Prints curling up

HelmutK wrote:

You should be running a bed temp of 100.
Also make sure your "Temperature" settings in Skeinforge are set to 200. Mine were set to 190 by default and even when I manually set the extruder temp to 200 it would drop the extruder temp to 190. After changing the Skeinforge temp settings to 200 now the extruder would stay around 200 unless it was running the cool setting in that part of the print, which I have set to 5 in Skeinforge.
I also had layer separation issues when my extruder temp was 190.

Makes sense. I bumped it up to 210 in Skeinforge, so I can have some room for adjustment in Prointerface.

Anyone else have other tips? This print takes 12 hours, so I want to try to get it right...

HelmutK, have you printed anything with a base >15 sqin? Anything less than that, and I'm not seeing layer separation or peeling from the bed. Its gotta be thermal stresses.

4

Re: Prints curling up

I just had one that is hockey puck shaped where the bottom half is hollow with a 3mm wall, and then there is a chamfer inside leading into the top half which had something like a .4 infill.  I had a slight crack in the side around the area where it changed from hollow to filled.  The filled section with all of its extra plastic exerted a much greater pull from the shrinkage than the hollow area.

One strategy to combat warping, if your design allows, is to add holes in the bottom layers and filled areas so that there is no point where a line can be drawn all the way across the part without hitting a gap.  That limits the amount of force that can be exerted from one side to the other by shrinking plastic.

5

Re: Prints curling up

Anyone have experiences on ABS vs. PLA with regard to curling/warping? I'm reading that PLA does better.

6

Re: Prints curling up

I was wondering if increasing the flow rates by a tiny amount would help with shrinkage. yet to find out..

I am still coming to grips with skeinforge settings, I am not sure exactly what to adjust .. things do not always seem to act the way you think and the only flow rate calibrations I can find for solidoodle on the official wiki are for slic3r, wtf .. thought skeinforge and pronterface was the one to use.
I found a description on lawzys (I think .. ?) blog with descriptions of D/T and W/T but my skeinforge does not seem to have the specific values to change as per the blog ..

the 2.1 setting for flow rate .. I am guessing thats the main one and will adjust everything accordingly..

for instance .. I have printed a few of these, the early ones all had holes visible, printing as more of a mesh, increasing 
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:16621

now I increased the /raft/base flow rate multiplier from 1.00 to 1.03 and it seemed to make things worse, the diagonal fill lines ending up to 1mm from the drawn perimeter, the perimeter can be easily split away after printing .. thinking it went the other way I then changed it to 0.97 and that seemed to fix it mostly .. gah, baffled smile

I have come close to reinstalling skeinforge after just turning the raft off smile it started printing 0.5mm above the bed. lol.

I will persevere, my printing computer decided it was time to die this morning, so reinstalling everything on another computer will give me the opportunity to start from scratch following solidoodles instructions to the letter.
I will let you know how it goes..

my challenge is to get prints with no raft to stick as well ..

I know all the info is online somewhere, just so much to wade through and learn, all fun.

.. just fixed my printing computer, added a spacer under the spacer under the motherboard under the video card, cheap cases are a pain..

7

Re: Prints curling up

Stoney wrote:

I found a description on lawzys (I think .. ?) blog with descriptions of D/T and W/T but my skeinforge does not seem to have the specific values to change as per the blog

We have come a full circle. Ian was getting credit for some of my posts and now I'm getting credit for his blog. Sounds like a good deal for me.

Hairspray really works wonders for getting prints to stick. Ian's design advice is very accurate as well.

8

Re: Prints curling up

hehe, sorry Ian, what the hell, their is so many people in this community who all deserve so much vredit its amazing smile

well, I just installed repetier host, followed Ians setup videos to the letter, wondering why I did not do this 3 days ago.
Only reason I did not try it, I was unable to do the firmware upgrade and thought there was some sort of incomaptibililty with  the stock hardware, seems fine so far..

First print is running at the moment, but it looks freaking awesome, so much more intuitive than skeinforge..
its sticking to the bed, no raft, no corners lifting,
first attempt it had no stick at all .. so just set first layer height to 70%, wow, how easy is that.
filament to 1.72mm, extruded width to 0.42mm ..


I think this is a whole new ball game.

9

Re: Prints curling up

Stoney wrote:

hehe, sorry Ian, what the hell, their is so many people in this community who all deserve so much vredit its amazing smile

Just to be sure you have it, I'm Lawsy. My first name is Michael.

Ian's user name is... IanJohnson.

10

Re: Prints curling up

20mm test cube .. first print, no raft, stuck like the proverbial to the blanket (i did also my first wipe with acetone, perhaps that did the job)

x 20.41mm x y 20.13mm x z 20.25mm ..

i am really impressed, enough that I may just delete skeinforge and pronterface right now, I see no further need for it..

11

Re: Prints curling up

lawsy wrote:
Stoney wrote:

hehe, sorry Ian, what the hell, their is so many people in this community who all deserve so much vredit its amazing smile

Just to be sure you have it, I'm Lawsy. My first name is Michael.

Ian's user name is... IanJohnson.


lol, yeh .. I was apologising to Ian .. not you, my post was not clear.

but mate, you have my sincerest thanks too.

I'd buy you a beer with no issues smile

12

Re: Prints curling up

We're both in oz so maybe one day we'll have one together.

In regards to you ditching pronterface/skeinforge, I've used it for one print ever, and that was just to double check something with my firmware. I'm frustrated seeing people asking questions about how to use it when Repetier-Host with Slic3r (and Skeinforge) is such a vastly superior package.

The sooner it is officially adopted the better.

13

Re: Prints curling up

that being said .. I seem to have broken slic3r or found a bug.

I was in slic3r config mucking around, set infill to every 2 layers on 0.3mm layers..
slicing gave me an error in the Log ..
<Slic3r> Maximum infill thickness can't exceed nozzle diameter

fair enough .. but no matter what I try I can't get the damn 'infill every'set back to 1 layer.

hmm, can't find a slic3r.ini .. I'll find out and report back.

14

Re: Prints curling up

I've had that same trouble where a setting changes back after saving the preset. Try pressing the up/down buttons instead of typing in the value. It's very frustrating.

15

Re: Prints curling up

tried everything .. ended up finding the slic3r.ini file in local settings/application data/repertierhost (forgot to search system folders)

edited the '2' in the ini file, saved .. still the same lol, not sure where the other configration settings (different profiles) are stored.

luckily the original <default> was still 1 .. so I ended up deleting the other presets and redoing the default and saving it again.
wierd bug..

16

Re: Prints curling up

Sometimes changing the name of the profile gets it to stick.  Sometimes not.

17 (edited by HelmutK 2012-10-29 16:58:36)

Re: Prints curling up

elmoret wrote:
HelmutK wrote:

You should be running a bed temp of 100.
Also make sure your "Temperature" settings in Skeinforge are set to 200. Mine were set to 190 by default and even when I manually set the extruder temp to 200 it would drop the extruder temp to 190. After changing the Skeinforge temp settings to 200 now the extruder would stay around 200 unless it was running the cool setting in that part of the print, which I have set to 5 in Skeinforge.
I also had layer separation issues when my extruder temp was 190.

Makes sense. I bumped it up to 210 in Skeinforge, so I can have some room for adjustment in Prointerface.

Anyone else have other tips? This print takes 12 hours, so I want to try to get it right...

HelmutK, have you printed anything with a base >15 sqin? Anything less than that, and I'm not seeing layer separation or peeling from the bed. Its gotta be thermal stresses.

No, I have not printed anything that large yet.  4" oval shape in the base is about the largest I have printed so far.
Yes, I would think upper layer separation is due to thermal stress from the abs cooling and/or insufficient bonding between layers.
Don't count out potential issues with the roll of abs you have due to quality, moisture etc... If possible try another roll of abs.

18 (edited by elmoret 2012-10-29 18:52:48)

Re: Prints curling up

HelmutK wrote:

No, I have not printed anything that large yet.  4" oval shape in the base is about the largest I have printed so far.
Yes, I would think upper layer separation is due to thermal stress from the abs cooling and/or insufficient bonding between layers.
Don't count out potential issues with the roll of abs you have due to quality, moisture etc... If possible try another roll of abs.


I printed the whole thing again:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Oct%2029%2C%2012%2034%2032%20PM.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Oct%2029%2C%2012%2034%2037%20PM.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Oct%2029%2C%2012%2039%2014%20PM.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Oct%2029%2C%2012%2039%2020%20PM.jpg

This one is definitely better, but still has splitting/warping.

This time:
Using ABS from Amazon
Extruder at 210
Bed at 100
Sides and front covered

The big problem I'm seeing (with an IR gun) is after about 2" have been deposited, the thermal gradient looks like this, from top to bottom:

190C (top layer)
35C (middle layer)
75C (bottom layers)

Which of course, leads to warping.

I could print each wall of the box individually of course, but I'd like to be able to print fullsize.

19 (edited by jooshs 2012-10-29 19:14:43)

Re: Prints curling up

That is a very ambitious print... I have had some problems with big prints doing similar things... It definitely has improved my results to add the case and or sides and keep the environment much warmer... Another thing I do on particularly difficult prints like this is to paint the side with a very diluted abs cement mixture.  As the print goes up I have a small quarter inch flat paint brush and put a light coat of the mixture on every 15-20 layers without stopping the print...  You can make it by adding a handful of abs shavings of your desired color to acetone...  It helps seal the layers very quickly when they are warm and has got me through a few very large prints.

As an aside, I notice you definitely have very noticeable ridges on the sides.  Assuming that you did not design for that, this is an issue that is being discussed... I'm not sure if it has been decided yet, but it seems to be coming from z wobble due to the threaded rod on the z axis or inconsistent z steps... If this is the case some of your layers may be being laid down a little bit above where they should which would make it much more difficult for them to adhere to the previous layer and cause some of this splitting.  Are you cooling your electronics board?

20 (edited by elmoret 2012-10-30 01:58:58)

Re: Prints curling up

Those are great ideas.

There's definitely some z-axis wobble. Also, the non-motor carriage of the Y-axis is broken, thanks to UPS. I'm going on a month now, waiting for a new part from SD. Right now half of the x-axis is held up by a zip tie.

How are people fixing the z-wobble?

I'm definitely cooling the electronics board. Very surprised SD doesn't include a $2 fan and $0.10 printed cover.

21

Re: Prints curling up

elmoret wrote:

Those are great ideas.

There's definitely some z-axis wobble. Also, the non-motor carriage of the Y-axis is broken, thanks to UPS. I'm going on a month now, waiting for a new part from SD. Right now half of the x-axis is held up by a zip tie.

How are people fixing the z-wobble?

I'm definitely cooling the electronics board. Very surprised SD doesn't include a $2 fan and $0.10 printed cover.

In case you haven't already, send us an e-mail to check up on that. We'll make sure your all taken care of.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

22

Re: Prints curling up

solidoodlesupport wrote:
elmoret wrote:

Those are great ideas.

There's definitely some z-axis wobble. Also, the non-motor carriage of the Y-axis is broken, thanks to UPS. I'm going on a month now, waiting for a new part from SD. Right now half of the x-axis is held up by a zip tie.

How are people fixing the z-wobble?

I'm definitely cooling the electronics board. Very surprised SD doesn't include a $2 fan and $0.10 printed cover.

In case you haven't already, send us an e-mail to check up on that. We'll make sure your all taken care of.

I have. I got the y-axis belt pulley mount in the mail via UPS, still waiting on the carriage and z-axis threaded rod. I've sent an email and was told they're on the way. Fingers crossed!