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Topic: Z axis wobble

I started working on my .1mm prints and noticed heavy banding on my prints, similar to what many people have described as being caused by the threaded rod on Z axis.
the picture is the side of one of the electronics covers, printed at .1mm. I don't see any way it missed steps or anything, so that leaves the z axis. It's bad enough to be felt.
To me, its unacceptable as it stands, so if theres any ideas as to how to fix this, please share them. I started working on a beam that holds the top of the threaded rod to support it, but i cant tell if the rod is bent causing the wobble or what.
I have the newer z-axis with the hole in the rod instead of the coupling.

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Re: Z axis wobble

Cwalster wrote:

I started working on my .1mm prints and noticed heavy banding on my prints, similar to what many people have described as being caused by the threaded rod on Z axis.
the picture is the side of one of the electronics covers, printed at .1mm. I don't see any way it missed steps or anything, so that leaves the z axis. It's bad enough to be felt.
To me, its unacceptable as it stands, so if theres any ideas as to how to fix this, please share them. I started working on a beam that holds the top of the threaded rod to support it, but i cant tell if the rod is bent causing the wobble or what.
I have the newer z-axis with the hole in the rod instead of the coupling.

This is from a .1mm print?

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

3 (edited by Cwalster 2012-10-24 18:49:28)

Re: Z axis wobble

heres a direct comparison, .3 to .1, same file, just different layers. nickel is for size referance.
.3 is on the bottom, and has visible layers, as to be expected.
.1 the layers blend nicely together, but the weird banding appears. i think the larger layer size masks the effect.

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Re: Z axis wobble

That's a weird one, you'd think you would see it in the .3 if it was from the z screw.  That .3 looks perfect.

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Re: Z axis wobble

Cwalster wrote:

heres a direct comparison, .3 to .1, same file, just different layers. nickel is for size referance.
.3 is on the bottom, and has visible layers, as to be expected.
.1 the layers blend nicely together, but the weird banding appears. i think the larger layer size masks the effect.

What is your .1mm set up like? What have you altered?

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

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Re: Z axis wobble

the speeds stayed the same for perimeters and infill (75 for perimeters, 150 for infill), infill every 3 instead of every layer, didn't make cooling changes because its a large part. Otherwise, I did it in slic3r so the flowrates and that should stay relatively the same.

I should mention that the rod visibly moves back and forth while rotating, however i can't tell if its simply a bent rod, the fact that the top is unsupported, etc. It easily moves a 1/32 of an inch, and the banding roughly matches a 18 pitch thread.

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Re: Z axis wobble

I have tried supporting the top, and found that it still wobbled at the bed.  You can watch it through the window at the back of the Z platform.  It's the wobble at that point that matters, more than what it does at the top.

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Re: Z axis wobble

im going to try running some 1" calibration cubes to verify the effect, so ill report back later with those. This isn't a deal breaker for me at all, but it does annoy me enough to warrant fixing. I've had the printer less than a week too, and being the novice that i am it may in fact be in slic3r, but I can't see any way that slic3r would create banding like this.

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Re: Z axis wobble

Could it possibly be the infill every 3 has excessive flow so you're getting too much material every 3rd layer, might look similar to what you're seeing.  The pictures that I've seen of classic z wobble should be evident on the .3 prints too, and yours looks to be perfect by the picture you posted.

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Re: Z axis wobble

If the amount of Z movement is inconsistent, that might show more in a .1mm print.  If there is a .05 variation in how much it moves, that is a much bigger percentage of a .1mm layer than a .3mm layer.

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Re: Z axis wobble

I'd expect that it would happen every .3mm though. it happens roughly every .050 inches (measured trough to trough with dial calipers, though admitted its hard to accurately measure bumps this small). thats 1.27mm, and 4 layers of infill. I'm not ruling out slic3r issues as the cause, but I cant see any correlation between the bumps and the numbers in slic3r. i can see correlations with the threaded rod, and therefore, that's my focus.

12 (edited by Cwalster 2012-10-25 02:19:58)

Re: Z axis wobble

Cubes are done, with the bewildering results I hate.
.3mm cube came out perfect, as expected.
.1mm with cooling cutting the speed down pretty heavily, 3 of the 4 sides were pretty much perfect, with the 4th side having visible, but not "feelable" banding. It's the same frequency as the electronics cover, but nowhere near the same depth. the picture attached is of the one side.
.1mm without cooling, therefore the same speed as as the cover, no banding (though very blobby, as to be expected).

all of this done with these settings on slic3r:
fill density .5, line fill, every 3 layers.
perimeters at 75mm/s, with external perimeters at 50%
infill at 125 mm/s, with solid infill at 50%
350mm/s travel
100% extrusion width for every layer except first (250%), which is also at .3mm

All this begs the question: what caused the banding earlier?

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Re: Z axis wobble

Cwalster wrote:

Cubes are done, with the bewildering results I hate.
.3mm cube came out perfect, as expected.
.1mm with cooling cutting the speed down pretty heavily, 3 of the 4 sides were pretty much perfect, with the 4th side having visible, but not "feelable" banding. It's the same frequency as the electronics cover, but nowhere near the same depth. the picture attached is of the one side.
.1mm without cooling, therefore the same speed as as the cover, no banding (though very blobby, as to be expected).

all of this done with these settings on slic3r:
fill density .5, line fill, every 3 layers.
perimeters at 75mm/s, with external perimeters at 50%
infill at 125 mm/s, with solid infill at 50%
350mm/s travel
100% extrusion width for every layer except first (250%), which is also at .3mm

All this begs the question: what caused the banding earlier?

Could this be a flow rate issue?

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

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Re: Z axis wobble

I would try the same test with skeinforge. I can't tell you why but when I slice with slic3r (any version) I get horizontal banding in the print. This doesn't happen when I slice the same part with a different slicer (skeinforge is my go-to when slic3r isn't playing nice). Try it and see - I'd like to know if it's just me.

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Re: Z axis wobble

Also, I'm very happy that the solidoodle folks sent me a new z-axis screw setup. I have one of the early SD2's and had the abs coupling. The new unit was a breeze to install and is a much better solution. Now if only I could figure out why slic3r puts ridges on things even with the new unit smile

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Re: Z axis wobble

I have the same phenomenon with slic3r, skeinforge works fine.

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Re: Z axis wobble

I'm wondering if slic3r and skeinforge have different feedrates for the z movements.

If slic3r was changing layers too fast or slow, it could aggravate inaccuracies in the z threaded rod.

Can someone experiencing the problem post their gcode files for slic3r and skeinforge?

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Re: Z axis wobble

I have one of the replacement z threaded rods (thank you, Solidoodle) and now have a very straight z-axis. I still see this discrepancy between slicer and skeinforge. I'll post some comparative prints and their gcode later today.

19 (edited by jenninaj 2012-11-17 17:43:46)

Re: Z axis wobble

Okay, finally had time to do this.

First, the part printed with skeinforge - you can see there is a subtle banding but I've angled the light to make it as marked as possible:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenninaj/8 … hotostream

Second, same part printed with slic3r-0.9.5 (the same thing happens with previous 0.9.x versions):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenninaj/8 … hotostream

So, given that this is a consistent effect and slic3r is always the culprit, I'm not sure what's going on.

The gcode for both is here attached.

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Re: Z axis wobble

In Slic3r - Printer Settings > Extruder1, what is your Lift Z set to?

If it is not zero, please change it to zero.

21 (edited by jenninaj 2012-11-17 17:43:14)

Re: Z axis wobble

Lawsy - thanks for the suggestion. I changed the retraction to zero (disabling it) and obtained similar if not identical results (I can't tell the difference, either by eye or by touch).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenninaj/8 … hotostream

And the gcode.

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Re: Z axis wobble

Not retraction, Lift Z.

Retraction is for getting rid of blobs. 'Lift Z' makes the z axis work a lot more. If it were turned on in Slic3r, instead of just moving down for each layer, it will be moving up down up down in the middle of each layer. This movement coupled with z backlash might be what is making the mess of your prints.

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Re: Z axis wobble

*must...learn...read...instructions...*

Sorry about that - my bad. Here's the print again with the z-lift disabled. In addition, I had already installed the z-axis preload design of matt_johnson63:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:34397

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenninaj/8 … hotostream

Same deal, those strange ridges appear with slic3r only.

My gcode from this run:

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Re: Z axis wobble

I'm very interested to get to the bottom of this.

In theory, once the g-code is made, the printer doesn't know the difference as to where it came from, which means there is something in the actual code that is slightly different.

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Re: Z axis wobble

It's certainly intriguing. I have plenty of filament and am open to suggestions. With the new behavior of slic3r with respect to thin walls this is the last reason I go back to skeinforge.  Thanks in advance.