26 (edited by adrian 2013-07-13 10:44:40)

Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups

FatalDischarge wrote:

It is about 20 min for it to heat up with glass. Would putting some aluminum foil between the aluminum and ceramic help with heat transfer, or no? Also, do I still need hairspray? Is it really worth the switch from glass to ceramic?

I use a dusting of hairspray.

The main advantage of ceramic over 'ordinary' glass is - glass has almost no thermal mass and is not uniform in its distribution as a result (it will have high intensity spots with sharp drop off across the plate) and its thermal conduction is measured in the 0.8-1.0 realms .... Borosilicate glass has a slightly higher transmission value (making it a better conductor than 'ordinary' glass), due to its annealed surface (1.05->1.2). This also improves its heat uniformity, but its still a 'lightweight' in thermal mass stakes. What this means is a change in the heatbed is rapidly reflected to the glass and its upper surface - turn the heatbed off and the glass will cool in a matter of minutes..

Ceramic Tiles on the other hand, depending on the specific composition, can have 4,5,10,20 times the heat conduction capabilities of glass, whilst also having much larger thermal mass - it takes longer to observe a change as a result of changes to the heat intensity, but as a result, it is far more uniform and gradual in its temperature changes... switching off the heat bed and leaving the tile for 10 minutes can see it still with a temp of 60°C....

Granite Tile is anywhere from 1.7->4 as a thermal conductor... so again, 1.5 to 4 times 'better' than glass.... only problem with granite is they tend to be large tiles...

So whilst it takes a tad longer to heat up than glass - it does so with far more uniformity and will also not fluctuate during a print as much as glass does (for example, when the bed is at the bottom of its PID cycle, glass will observe say a degree change in temp, where as tile will stay at the setpoint whilst PID bounces around... I found this has a HUGE impact on curling/warping/lifting... I just dont get that happening on ceramic tile, where as I do on Glass/Aluminium (Alu being the opposite end of the scale and *too* good of a conductor..... it retains no thermal mass and needs constant application of a heat source to maintain temperature - but heck it'll get there fast wink )

All I can say is, play with it for a bit, experiment over a few days, and I'm pretty sure you'll be impressed with a tile over glass....

27 (edited by 2n2r5 2013-07-14 04:56:23)

Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups

adrian wrote:

So whilst it takes a tad longer to heat up than glass - it does so with far more uniformity and will also not fluctuate during a print as much as glass does (for example, when the bed is at the bottom of its PID cycle, glass will observe say a degree change in temp, where as tile will stay at the setpoint whilst PID bounces around... I found this has a HUGE impact on curling/warping/lifting... I just dont get that happening on ceramic tile, where as I do on Glass/Aluminium (Alu being the opposite end of the scale and *too* good of a conductor..... it retains no thermal mass and needs constant application of a heat source to maintain temperature - but heck it'll get there fast wink )

All I can say is, play with it for a bit, experiment over a few days, and I'm pretty sure you'll be impressed with a tile over glass....

For others that don't know -

It's worth noting that doing a PID autotune for the bed using "M303 E-1 C8 S90" will make you temps stay within .1 C of your set value. (even without glass or tile) This can only be changed in the firmware so for the new boards this is temporarily an unknown.

#define PIDTEMPBED needs to be uncommented and you need to replace the SD bed PID settings with your autotune results.

Check out how flat my temps are after adjusting PID settings.

http://2n2r5.com/pictures/printer/show-n-tell/PID_autotune_results.jpg

SD3 w/ mods:
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.

28 (edited by adrian 2013-07-14 05:25:03)

Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups

Still only helps one section of the glass, right at the thermistor not the whole bed as you can see in the thermal images... I had bed pid tuned each of them. It doesn't change the basic properties of glass vs ceramics as you can see in the thermal images which take the whole bed into account, not just a spot reading at the thermistor

29

Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups

Good point :-) I figured you had tuned. It was more for others that didn't know about it. 

Amazon Decorative Tiles

I am thinking of getting a decorative 8" tile because that would look badass. 3D Printing on a Mona Lisa.

SD3 w/ mods:
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.

30 (edited by adrian 2013-07-14 06:54:11)

Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups

2n2r5 wrote:

Good point :-) I figured you had tuned. It was more for others that didn't know about it. 

Amazon Decorative Tiles

I am thinking of getting a decorative 8" tile because that would look badass. 3D Printing on a Mona Lisa.

Yuppers - I posted a post many months back over at http://www.soliforum.com/topic/1720/mas … nable-pid/ on the subject smile

Re the decorative tiles - why not wink But just remember, you don't want toooo much glaze on there... so avant-garde picasso-esque cubism efforts are probably not the best choices wink But the ink-jet printed ones you linked to should be fine .. and that lobster tile will go really well next to my Big Billy Bass big_smile

31

Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups

We need a way to identify "related threads" because that would be awesome.

SD3 w/ mods:
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.

32

Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups

It would be interesting to see PCB/Silicone heater + 1-2mm aluminum sheet then glass on top. I wonder how much the aluminum would even out the heat.