1 Topic by delorean175 (edited by delorean175 2019-07-26 08:33:55)

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Topic: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

Hello all,

I have an DS3 with a new E3d V6 and a new print bed. I used a MOSFET setup for my Bed and Extruder instead of a solid state relay. I have good adhesion and I think the bed temp is good (90C) I ran the factory extruder for many years and I got it pretty dialed in. I actually made some really decent prints. It finally died on me. I tried a knock off E3D made by GulfCoast Robotics, it was terrible. I had nothing but jamming and skipping issues at all temps. I messed with it for a while and gave up. I never managed to get one whole print from it. So I bought the real E3D.

After issues with versions of Marlin and teensyduino I managed to get a .hex file from Knowback who is running the same extruder. I believe the temps readings are correct now.

I'm having issues with my prints, I believe I have a few issues actually. I've been tweaking settings off and on for days and can't manage to get a print to go over 10 layers without (what looks like) over extruding or something. A .3mm wall box will collapse in like a pyramid. A cylinder will look like a cooling tower at a nuclear power plant. lol After playing with the extrusion width settings I managed to get nothing coming out of the nozzle after about 5 layers, it wasn't skipping either. The stepper motor wasn't turning at all. I since went back to basic width settings and that stopped.


I'm a bit stumped. I feel like the temps are way too hot because of the melting. My temp readings are 225. At 190 I get the same problem only not as messy. When the temps are set below 187C the extruder skips. Also when I set the extrusion multiplier to .9 or higher it skips, I currently have it at .65 and it doesn't skip. 

Things I've done so far:

Set VREF (I believe correctly) for the Z. I set the others and they run way smoother now, but not contributing to my current issue.
Set PID values
extrusion width set to .48 for .1mm layer height (was.42) I set the other values to 0 today.
played with extrusion multiplier
played with extrusion widths
played with temperatures or the bed and the extruder. Currently trying Extruder 225C Bed 90C
tried 225C for first layer 220, 115, 110 for other layers
Played with speed settings
rechecked filament diameter (1.74)
calibrated extruder filament going into the extruder.

I've always had issues with my inner layers, the width of the extrusion was always a little narrow. I adjusted that today and still have the same issue, as noted in the last pic. But it always made good looking prints and never did this, so I believe this issue could be separate.

Let me know what you guys think. I feel like I missed something somewhere.

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2 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

First and foremost get new filament. That stuff you are using appears to be saturated with moisture. Then come back with remaining issues if any.

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3 Reply by heartless

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

agree on getting a new spool of material, or properly drying what you have.

I also have a couple of other questions for you...

1. Have you properly calibrated the feed rate?
          ie: if you ask it to feed 100mm, it feeds exactly 100mm
2. what are you using for a slicer?

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
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4 Reply by delorean175

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

I appreciated the replies guys,

I'll get more filament. It's going to take a little while. I have some life circumstances that I need to save my cash for. I'm reading about drying filament out. I will give it a try because it's my only option at the moment.

I'm running slic3r 1.01. I never updated because my machine worked relatively well up until recently. I believe I properly calibrated the feed rate. 100mm goes in when I tell it to feed 100mm. My E is set to 104 steps for 100mm.

I never thought about moisture in the filament, I've been fortunate to never have encountered that before.

5 Reply by heartless

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

Honestly, I would upgrade to at least 1.2.9 - more functionality and features.
the latest (1.3.0) has even more features, but still a little buggy. All in all it is not a bad upgrade, but since I use Slic3r thru RH, and 1.3.0 will not work in the same way, I keep 1.2.9 installed as well.

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6 Reply by delorean175 (edited by delorean175 2019-07-29 11:14:14)

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

I upgraded. Also I managed to dry out my filament. It made an improvement but didn't fix the issue completely. Here was a print I did after. Could my speed settings be a part of this issue? When Printing the cylinders I still get hour glass shaped cylinders, and blobs.

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7 Reply by heartless

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

speed, temperature, and gonna be honest, still looks like over-extrusion, too.

what kind of material is this?? ABS, PLA, what?

SDs do not typically do very well with speeds above 40mm/s

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
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8 Reply by delorean175

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

heartless wrote:

speed, temperature, and gonna be honest, still looks like over-extrusion, too.

what kind of material is this?? ABS, PLA, what?

SDs do not typically do very well with speeds above 40mm/s

I'm using ABS made by FormFutura. It made some really nice prints with my old hotend. I adjusted my VREF again using a multimeter instead of sound. I gotta say my X axis is louder at the recommended voltage. So I tuned that one by ear again. Before I adjusted the VREF It used to get really hot if not cooled. I once I had an incident where the fan fell off the X axis stepper and it melted the carriage. I didn't know what VREF was or how to adjust it, so I designed a new and improved fan shroud cooler and it made a big difference.

I will turn down the speed settings. They are currently turned up a bit. Some are in the 60mm/s range. As for over extrusion, I went ahead and re-calibrated the feed rate after adjusting the VREF. It was off by about 1mm. If there anything else I should do at this point? I have the extrusion width set to .48mm for .1mm layer height. The infill still has little gaps in between them. Would a possible fix be to turn up the extrusion width for infill? My first layer looks kinda blobby, but it sticks.

9 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

That .1mm layer height could be an issue. I may be wrong but that printer was never really meant to go that low. .2mm is the lowest I would go on that machine as it is. Especially since it sounds like you are still using mostly stock parts in the hotend.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
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10 Reply by heartless

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

ok, solidoodle does not use round numbers for layers either..

0.3 should be 0.2963
0.2 should be 0.1905
etc

the reason for this is because of the SAE threaded rod - it does not divide evenly like a metric one would.

the SD3 (and 4) can do lower layer heights, but not in nice round numbers like you would think. I have successfully printed at 0.127 in the past.
That said, for tuning purposes, i would suggest dialing it in using the larger layer height - 0.2963 to start with. Get speed, jerk settings, all that stuff sorted out with the larger layer until it is printing exactly the way you want it to - nice and smooth, and looking good, then step down to lower layers.

Also, in Slic3r, under the Advanced settings.. do not leave them all at 0. Specify exactly what you want.

http://soliforum.com/i/?HSytGi8.png

pretty much any of these settings - except the first one - can be tweaked to get the results you are after, but you need to start with the basics until you get things dialed in.

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
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11 Reply by justsomeguy

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

Do you have a part cooling fan?

Your prints look a little like a problem I have sometimes. Some spools of ABS have a pretty severe shrinkage problem and I have the fan come on after the second layer. If I don't do this, some layers shrink so bad that the print collapses.

12 Reply by heartless

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

printing ABS should not require a part fan at all.
In fact, I don't even have them installed on my SD4s - don't use them, don't need them on those machines.

Printing PLA, or PETg, yes, you probably need a fan. But ABS? No. In fact, it can cause more problems than it solves.

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
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13 Reply by delorean175

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

heartless:

Yes I am quite aware of the SAE threaded rod and uneven number layer heights. I can't remember off hand what I usually have it set to but I used a calculator for finding the exact layer height. I just call it .1mm for simplicity. I will go back to .3mm to dial it in. I haven't had to really mess with these settings since 2015. lol So I'm a little rusty, I fanatically used my machine the first year I had it. That was when I got it dialed in. Over the years it always just worked. All I really had to do was calibrations and it made some nice prints. I had 1 or 2 clogs total with the original hot end.

I exclusively print ABS. My extrusion width settings used to have values for my old set up, but since the E3D hotend I've been having these issues. I tried setting the extrusion widths to 0 to see is slic3r could work it out. I will put numbers back in the boxes. I'll try the settings you posted.




carl_m1968: My machine isn't super modified but it isn't completely stock. I have the Lawsy carriages, LMUU8 bearings, polished rods, Plexiglass enclosure, E3D hotend, and some generic 220mm Reprap printbed with a nice thick piece of borosilicate glass, 30A power supply, Z backlash nut thing, Z axis wobble stabilizer bar, better cooling fans, 2 MOSFET controller boards instead of solid state relays. One for the heated bed, one for the extruder. I wanted to take as much load off the main board as possible.

The only things that changed in the last few years was the heated bed and hot end. It made some really decent prints with the stock hot end and print bed. My Solidoodle print bed was warped, so (even with glass) I never really had a big print area. But I had figured out where all the cool spots were and marked them out with a sharpie so I would avoid putting my prints in those spots. lol '

Justsomeguy: I don't currently have a cooling fan that will fit my setup, since a print ABS I didn't really worry about printing one.

14 Reply by heartless (edited by heartless 2019-07-31 11:33:02)

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

delorean175 wrote:

heartless:

Yes I am quite aware of the SAE threaded rod and uneven number layer heights. I can't remember off hand what I usually have it set to but I used a calculator for finding the exact layer height. I just call it .1mm for simplicity. I will go back to .3mm to dial it in. I haven't had to really mess with these settings since 2015. lol So I'm a little rusty, I fanatically used my machine the first year I had it. That was when I got it dialed in. Over the years it always just worked. All I really had to do was calibrations and it made some nice prints. I had 1 or 2 clogs total with the original hot end.

I exclusively print ABS. My extrusion width settings used to have values for my old set up, but since the E3D hotend I've been having these issues. I tried setting the extrusion widths to 0 to see is slic3r could work it out. I will put numbers back in the boxes. I'll try the settings you posted.

Nice to know what you know - you would be surprised at how many do not know these things.

So, hoping you also know how to calibrate each spool of material, too?
there are specific steps for that as well

the stock hotend was much more "forgiving" in terms of calibration and producing decent looking prints - the E3D is going to be way more precise and requires proper calibrations to achieve the best results.

there is a not so well known "bug" with Slic3r and leaving the advanced settings at the default 0 - it does not quite work as intended. It is best to specify those settings for the best results.

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
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15 Reply by delorean175 (edited by delorean175 2019-08-01 07:01:31)

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

heartless wrote:

Nice to know what you know - you would be surprised at how many do not know these things.

So, hoping you also know how to calibrate each spool of material, too?
there are specific steps for that as well

the stock hotend was much more "forgiving" in terms of calibration and producing decent looking prints - the E3D is going to be way more precise and requires proper calibrations to achieve the best results.

there is a not so well known "bug" with Slic3r and leaving the advanced settings at the default 0 - it does not quite work as intended. It is best to specify those settings for the best results.


I do tend to nerd out over my hobbies. haha I like to read up and learn as much as I can.

I think I know how to calibrate for every spool. Is it where you measure in 3 different spots to make sure the diameter it consistent? Or average out the 3 and set that as the filament diameter?

I mirrored your extrusion width settings, changed all my speed settings to 35mm/s. I feel like it still prints really fast when I set everything to 35mm/s. Like small 3mm circles for bolts. It's definitely moving faster than 35mm/s. I definitely make sure to re-slice the print after making changes.

With .3mm layer height the print came out ok, no over extrusion. But the layer gaps are kinda bad. Check it out in pic.2. With .1 it's pretty much the same as before. Is it possible It could have anything to do with belt tension or something? There was no issue before I replaced the hotend but I did notice the over extrusion happens on the back side of the prints. The sides are hour glass shaped. The front comes out looking good. That's with .1mm though. Regardless of layer height my first layer comes out looking blobby. On the bright side I've rarely ever had issues with first layer adhesion. lol

Good to know Slic3r isn't good at the default 0 thing.

I read about an E3D hobb-Goblin. Would that help me any right now? It would probably make it so I have to re calibrate a few things.

Are there any other software avenues I can take? Like something different than RH and Slic3r? I've heard of Soliprint but don't know exactly what it is used for. I'm slowly getting defeated here.

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16 Reply by heartless

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

wow, yeah, that is not good.

no, a hob-goblin is not going to help in this case..

Belt tension is next on the list of things to check.. they should be pretty snug, not sloppy. Check them over very carefully for worn spots and/or split ends (where the screws go thru). If everything checks out ok, tighten them up - not so tight that things are binding up, but not loose either.
You should be able to pluck the belt and get a low tone. Y belts should sound the same when plucked, too.  Make sure the small loop belt is also tight.

You also want to make sure everything is aligned properly, front to back, and side to side. The Y belts should be running in a straight line front to back, not angled at all - and the carriages are aligned from left to right.

After you get belt tension sorted out, we should maybe take a look at all of your settings.

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
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17 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

heartless wrote:

wow, yeah, that is not good.

no, a hob-goblin is not going to help in this case..

Belt tension is next on the list of things to check.. they should be pretty snug, not sloppy. Check them over very carefully for worn spots and/or split ends (where the screws go thru). If everything checks out ok, tighten them up - not so tight that things are binding up, but not loose either.
You should be able to pluck the belt and get a low tone. Y belts should sound the same when plucked, too.  Make sure the small loop belt is also tight.

You also want to make sure everything is aligned properly, front to back, and side to side. The Y belts should be running in a straight line front to back, not angled at all - and the carriages are aligned from left to right.

After you get belt tension sorted out, we should maybe take a look at all of your settings.

Heartless, just asking here but does it not look like his temps may be a little low? To me it does not look like his layers or walls are bonding very well. Each layer and wall seems too pronounced.

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18 Reply by heartless

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

carl_m1968 wrote:
heartless wrote:

wow, yeah, that is not good.

no, a hob-goblin is not going to help in this case..

Belt tension is next on the list of things to check.. they should be pretty snug, not sloppy. Check them over very carefully for worn spots and/or split ends (where the screws go thru). If everything checks out ok, tighten them up - not so tight that things are binding up, but not loose either.
You should be able to pluck the belt and get a low tone. Y belts should sound the same when plucked, too.  Make sure the small loop belt is also tight.

You also want to make sure everything is aligned properly, front to back, and side to side. The Y belts should be running in a straight line front to back, not angled at all - and the carriages are aligned from left to right.

After you get belt tension sorted out, we should maybe take a look at all of your settings.

Heartless, just asking here but does it not look like his temps may be a little low? To me it does not look like his layers or walls are bonding very well. Each layer and wall seems too pronounced.

and that would be a part of the "taking a look at the rest of the settings", lol

the prints are just all around sloppy - something is seriously loose. Need to address that first.

but yeah, temp could be a part of the problem.
ABS on an E3D is typically be between 235 & 240, generally speaking - varies a little with brand & specific type, but most brands don't specify the exact type used.

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
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19 Reply by delorean175 (edited by delorean175 2019-08-04 01:45:27)

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

Hey guys! So I loosened the set screws on the pulleys on the Y rod, took off the little belt, I re-tensioned the belts, tried to get everything as square as possible, re-leveled the print bed. It prints look better but now my circles aren't round. Also my squares aren't square. They are wider than they should be, front to back 6.5mm width 8.3mm. Looking at the squares from before today the boxes looked ever so slightly diamond shaped. The LMUU8 bearings have a little wiggle in the carriages. I put some blue masking tape on them to tighten everything up. When I loosen up the set screws on the Y rod the X axis/ rods naturally sit slightly cockeyed, it also slides smoother. It's an issue its had since i upgraded the carriages and rods. But it always printed decent circles. Today I corrected it to make everything square, but i feel a slight bit more drag when I manually slide the carriages. Strange but the layers are looking better now.

I might have to go to our local library and pay to have some new carriages printed off. My temp is set to 230 right now as well. 235 was a little hot for the .3 thick single wall calibration box. Also I noticed my Y rod isn't perfectly straight.

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20 Reply by heartless (edited by heartless 2019-08-04 02:13:22)

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

your single walls should be 0.48 - NOT 0.3

the whole point of printing a single wall calibration box is to get the extrusion width to 0.48
Once that is dialed in, then you can play with the various extrusion settings to fine tune print results.

But for calibration, all extrusion settings should be set to 0.48

I have a complete calibration profile set up in Slic3r, specifically for calibrating every single spool of filament i run. It is a simple click of the mouse to select the calibration profile, then once dialed in, I go back to my printing profiles.

and yeah, your carriages are not correct if they want to sit cockeyed to move smoothly.. are the X rods held in with screws? have you tried loosening them and adjusting to see if you can get it squared up?

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
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21 Reply by delorean175

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

heartless wrote:

your single walls should be 0.48 - NOT 0.3

O yeah, good point. lol I needed a calibration square and didn't have internet so I drew one up in Autocad. I can't remember why I named it the .3mm calibration square. lol I made it a long time ago. It definitely prints only 1 wall thick. 1 wall measures .35mm thick. So I have some calibrating to do there. It's one of the 3 prints I use to test my printer. I have a 22mm circle I print as well. It only takes 10 min on .3mm layer heights. So I can make a quick print, quick tweak of settings then print again. I will take a look and see whats going on with these carriages. I'll check out your write up on the spool calibration. I'll post back my progress.

22 Reply by delorean175

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

So I really tried my absolute best so square up everything in terms of the rods. I measured, I used a right angle, it looks perfectly square. It made the circles worse. Something isn't right at all. Is it possible to calibrate the steps needed for the X and Y axis? It should be sorta like calibrating the extruder feed rate right? could you post your EEPROM settings?

23 Reply by Tin Falcon (edited by Tin Falcon 2019-08-04 12:21:13)

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

sounds like your drive pulleys are not properly positioned.
first make sure your belts are tight. The loosens the set screws on the  y dive pulleys. (one set may already be loose)
then move the y axis by hand font and back about 5 to 6 times then carefully retighten the drive pulleys on the rear shaft.
also check the set screws on the x axis make sure they are tight
the x and y steps should be virtually the same. do not recall the number.
sounds like a mechanical issue always tune the mechanical stuff before worrying about electronics calibrations.
make sure you home before printing.

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
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24 Reply by heartless

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

delorean175 wrote:

So I really tried my absolute best so square up everything in terms of the rods. I measured, I used a right angle, it looks perfectly square. It made the circles worse. Something isn't right at all. Is it possible to calibrate the steps needed for the X and Y axis? It should be sorta like calibrating the extruder feed rate right? could you post your EEPROM settings?

No, I will not post EEPROM settings, because you should never use settings from someone else's printer. Each printer is unique in what it needs.

carriages need to be squared up and in a neutral position on the Y rods (no binding)
belts need to be tight and running true - there should be no deviation in the path
Don't forget to adjust the X belt as well - it should be running level and tight.

there should not be "slop" anywhere

now, all of that aside.. how much wiggle does the front of your bed have?? if you put your finger on the center front, and wiggle side to side.. how much does it move? That can also be a source of out of round circles and other anomalies

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
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25 Reply by delorean175

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Re: SD3 w/ new e3d upgrade, issues with prints collapsing in

Tin Falcon wrote:

sounds like your drive pulleys are not properly positioned.
first make sure your belts are tight. The loosens the set screws on the  y dive pulleys. (one set may already be loose)
then move the y axis by hand font and back about 5 to 6 times then carefully retighten the drive pulleys on the rear shaft.
also check the set screws on the x axis make sure they are tight
the x and y steps should be virtually the same. do not recall the number.
sounds like a mechanical issue always tune the mechanical stuff before worrying about electronics calibrations.
make sure you home before printing.

This is the exact process I use to adjust everything. When I loosen everything and go back and forth the X rods want to sit slightly cockeyed. They roll the smoothest that way, but they aren't perfectly squared up. When I make them square it prints the weird circles. I'll run through the process again to see what I can do.