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Topic: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

I understand that the optic sensor resolution must be "spread" through the whole volume of the scanned object, hence the larger the potential volume, the lower the resolution.
Being on the lookout for a "down to earth" priced alternative to professional scanning machines, which in my field easily reach a 10K$ tag (if bought second hand) just to be pretty looking and easy to use, I am looking to get a sub-100um definition on an open source design machine, my aim being to scan dental gypsii (look for "dental gypsum" on google images if you're not familiar with the concept) at a detail decent enough to build transfer jigs with my reprap, or, why not, invisible orthodontic aligners.
Atlas 3D, at ~250um, is still twice as detailed as Ciclop with its ~500um, yet I suppose that this spec can be seriously tweaked, either by simply reducing the total scan volume (a dental gypsum needs less than a 10cm side cube) putting the platform closer to the camera, or by using a better cmos sensor, and even better by implementing both changes, which could get easily sub 50um definition.
Is this really as simple as I think it would be, or should I look elsewhere?

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

It's theoretically possible to achieve that quality with a design based on ATLAS 3D but I don't know whether you would truly get that real world use.

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

what do you think would be the limiting factor? Naturally I would also need a stepper motor with a very small degrees/step ratio, otherwise I would be getting oblongated voxels, but other than that are you accounting for the suposedly 13mp-something sensor to be so noisy that it wouldn't result in a real increase in laser line detection definition? Or what else?

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

The camera could probably handle it once you adjust the focus but you would likely need to use a different laser.  The gaps between the teeth could also be tricky depending upon the angle you're scanning at -- it could be difficult for the laser to actually get in between there.

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

Yes, I would definitely need thin lines on the lasers, and 0.9° step angle on the motor (or better a reduction gear assembly), yet as long as I can put together this little frankenstein of a scanner, and all I need to change are focus on camera/lasers and turntable assembly with reduction gear, but no low-level tinkering with the hardware and software, than I am all down for the experiment.

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

A neat problem. I looked at the results of an image search for "dental gypsum scanner"and there seem to be many different approaches. I liked the ones that tilted the axis of rotation so that the scan is angled down into the casting. I also noticed that some of the scanners are using structured light. There has been some discussion about capturing closeup scans using the Occipital Structure Sensor which uses structured IR. Unfortunately its IR camera is low resolution. The Pi camera is available in an IR version that simply lacks the IR filter of the standard one. You can read more about structured light scanners at several links here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure … 3D_scanner. It seems that the Atlas hardware and code would be a good place to start your project. Keep us posted on your progress.

One very important point: The use of scan data for what would most likely be characterized as a medical application requires that it be acquired by a device that meets FDA requirements for medical device development. This is a huge can of worms that in part leads to the high cost of professional scanners. I speak from 10 years of work as the lead test engineer for the medical software developer Vital Images: https://www.vitalimages.com/ a leader in the development of 3D medical data reconstruction, visualization and measurement.

A voxel is a three dimensional pixel!

7 (edited by ephestione 2015-11-11 06:53:32)

Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

Thank you for your ideas, I first want to tackle the project of building a PET filament extruder, which would be more functional to my short term needs, and then enjoy myself with the scanner project. I saw also a laser line scanner that tilted the model in several positions with several successive scans. Structured light also makes more sense, being faster and catching probably more details, but these are too techy approaches out of my DIY reach. I will test instead a closer distance and, if I can manage, a higher resolution camera, not a pi camera obviously but a high end USB webcam should work fine as well with the software.
Regarding the law, I am not subject to fda as I live in Europe, yet in my opinion that should regulate only commercial machinery. As long as it's the doctor who deals himself with the preparation of the X appliance, none should be interested in how he does it since he's the doctor and is taking full responsibility for his job, I could be using black magic for all I care as long as I get the job done smile))

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

ephestione wrote:

Regarding the law, I am not subject to fda as I live in Europe, yet in my opinion that should regulate only commercial machinery. As long as it's the doctor who deals himself with the preparation of the X appliance, none should be interested in how he does it since he's the doctor and is taking full responsibility for his job, I could be using black magic for all I care as long as I get the job done smile))

Wow,  that is a very uninformed attitude.

Perhaps you should start by reading up on the IEC60601-1 standards that have been in place for ages.  The current version IEC60601-1:2005 (aka 3rd edition) has been adopted as EN60601-1 by the European Union and is a requirement for all medical electrical equipment since 2012, overriding the previous (1988) version.  I don't remember which Collateral or clause deals with data acquisition and verification but it's in there. 

For you to say that anything goes just because the doctor takes responsibility, is very "irresponsible".

BTW, I work for a computer manufacturer and we primarily build and sell systems for the medical market and I'm painfully aware of the FDA & OSHA requirements and the Medical Equipment safety regulations, as well as the certification process.  We also sell our system in the EU, and and yes, we're required to have all the medical certs as well.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

Hello pirvan
I understand your opinion, and I am sorry if what I wrote gave you the impression of superficiality, or boldness, or, well, you name it smile
I am the doctor in this example, and I also have a passion for technology: I understand the certification requirements for medical equipment, especially the ultimate aim of it, which is obviously the safety of both personnel and patients, yet neither the 3d printer which I am testing in order to build transfer splints, or the custom atlas 3d which I might build in the end, are medical equipment nor will be used as such, since they will be off-office, and working on gypsum models. I, as the doctor, do not endanger the safety of my patients by putting them in direct contact with these contraptions (well, you and me know I wouldn't do that even if they were, and that 90% of the certificate business, is, well, just "business", which ends up making clinicians spend sometimes ten times the money needed to buy the same technology on the domestic market, obviously switching those costs on the end users), on the other hand with the help of computer aided planning on precise 3d models I am in fact offering a better service, without the cost overhead of "commercial" solutions.

I also understand you are a very proficient user of this scanner since before posting here I noticed your interventions in the forum here and there: did you have the chance to explore the possibilities of closing the distance to the camera in order to get better resolution, or have otherwise some tips specially directed to this end? Also, is the declared 0.25mm resolution a real-life expectation?

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

And on a side note, if I wanted to use a higher resolution webcam, let's say a 12mp one if I can find it, I suppose I can just use it instead of the standard raspi camera module, right?

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

ephestione wrote:

And on a side note, if I wanted to use a higher resolution webcam, let's say a 12mp one if I can find it, I suppose I can just use it instead of the standard raspi camera module, right?

I'm unaware of any other camera module that has been interfaced using the RPi's camera port. It is not a trivial matter because of the restrictions on access to the software that interfaces with the camera chips (my understanding). USB cameras can be interfaced to the RPi but I think they have to conform to the Universal USB camera standard. Also, since the data rate is limited to the USB 2.0 standard, large image transfer is slow unless it is compressed. Changing the camera will, as I'm sure your aware, require significant changes to FreeLSS the software that drives the scanner.

You might find this YouTube channel interesting: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmjN3g … gUWV-mZRpw

A voxel is a three dimensional pixel!

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

Hi voxelman, yes I was in fact not clear, I meant actually normal USB cameras... I read that you can use freelss on Linux with arduino controlling the rotating board, so technically it should be doable on raspberry as well instead of using the camera module, I noticed there are several Chinese clones but none that goes beyond the 5mp mark.

13 (edited by pirvan 2015-11-12 20:37:49)

Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

voxelman wrote:
ephestione wrote:

And on a side note, if I wanted to use a higher resolution webcam, let's say a 12mp one if I can find it, I suppose I can just use it instead of the standard raspi camera module, right?

I'm unaware of any other camera module that has been interfaced using the RPi's camera port. It is not a trivial matter because of the restrictions on access to the software that interfaces with the camera chips (my understanding). USB cameras can be interfaced to the RPi but I think they have to conform to the Universal USB camera standard. Also, since the data rate is limited to the USB 2.0 standard, large image transfer is slow unless it is compressed. Changing the camera will, as I'm sure your aware, require significant changes to FreeLSS the software that drives the scanner.

You might find this YouTube channel interesting: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmjN3g … gUWV-mZRpw

To add to it, the amount of time required to complete a scan would be prohibitive.  A 1600 step scan @ 5MP currently takes about 75-80 minutes.  A 12MP scan might take 2.5-3 hours. 

I don't think FreeLSS would require any major changes to work with the data provided by the camera as long as the camera is supported, but the sheer amount of data generated might overwhelm the CPU and available resources. 

I was having a hard time completing 3200 step scans @ 5MP before I upgraded my RaspBerry Pi to v.2, which has double the RAM, but I'm pretty sure a 12MB scan would kill it in short order.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

ephestione wrote:

I also understand you are a very proficient user of this scanner since before posting here I noticed your interventions in the forum here and there: did you have the chance to explore the possibilities of closing the distance to the camera in order to get better resolution, or have otherwise some tips specially directed to this end? Also, is the declared 0.25mm resolution a real-life expectation?

I never made any modifications to the scanner, so I really don't have any information to pas along as to how well it would work.

As Uriah has stated, FreeLSS allows you to change the distance from origin values, so bringing the camera closer should work fine as long as you can get it to focus properly at that distance.

As for what the actual resolution of the scan is, I really don't know, since I never needed to get that detailed.  I can tell you that I've scanned items where it picked up the texture of the items, which is not readily visible with the naked eye.  When I looked at the scan, I first though it had picked up false information, but after I looked closer to the model I was scanning I realized, that the surface had the texture there, I just never noticed it because the paintwork was detracting the eye.

So, for what I do, it's certainly very capable.  You'll find that proper lighting (or improper lighting) is probably going to affect the quality of the scan more than resolution, or anything else for that matter.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

Thank you pirvan, I am probably underestimating the declared 0.25mm, since after all the intermediate data will be interpolated by creating mesh triangles, and there will be no "voxelization".
I planned up front to buy a raspi2, which I already ordered along most of the other needed components; time is not a limitation though, since unlike my 3d printer, I can safely leave this scanner working by itself even while I'm out of home doing other stuff. I plan to build a sort of dark room around it, since for the use I plan I don't care for surface color scanning, just shape.
On a side note regarding the scanning steps: since most of the nema motors have 1.8° angle for each step, a whole 360° revolution would be completed in 200 steps; I was in the market for a 0.9°/step motor just to increase the radial resolution... so what is the meaning of 1600 or even 3200 steps in this case? Am I missing something?

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

ATLAS 3D does 16x microstepping.

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

ephestione wrote:

On a side note regarding the scanning steps: since most of the nema motors have 1.8° angle for each step, a whole 360° revolution would be completed in 200 steps; I was in the market for a 0.9°/step motor just to increase the radial resolution... so what is the meaning of 1600 or even 3200 steps in this case? Am I missing something?

My understanding is that the stepper motor driver is capable of micro stepping the motor which allows it to divide each of the static magnetic steps, 200 in this case, by a factor of 4, 8 or 16. This effectively increases the number of profiles that the scanner captures to 800, 1600 or 3200. Each profile contributes to the calculations that are used to generate the point cloud/mesh that the scanner generates so a higher number of steps translates into a finer, higher resolution mesh. Of course this is within the limits of the camera resolution being used, depth of field, quality of focus and in combination FreeLSS's ability to narrow all of these values down to a coordinate point. Hope this helps.

A voxel is a three dimensional pixel!

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

Thank you guys for the explanation, I went and researched microstepping, which I didn't know anything about before!
Apparently I just spent twice as much ordering a 0.9 degree/step motor but it wasn't necessary anyway... oh well, whatever wink

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Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

Using a longer focal length lens would allow a more narrow field of view for the scanner using the same camera to object distance. Longer focal length lenses tend to have flatter fields but also less depth of field. The following links are for:

1) A site that provides extensive technical detail about the RPi camera sensor and optics and sells both c-mount and M12 adapters.
http://www.truetex.com/raspberrypi

2) Another site that sells M12 adapters and a range of compatible lenses. Note that the lens characteristics are defined in terms of 1/2" and 1/3" sensors. Adjustments to these values can be made by using information on the above site.
http://www.m12lenses.com/CNC-Machined-R … 020rpm.htm
http://www.m12lenses.com/category-s/64.htm
http://www.m12lenses.com/M12-Fixed-Iris … s-s/44.htm

A voxel is a three dimensional pixel!

20 (edited by ephestione 2015-11-22 19:14:06)

Re: Increasing resolution by means of closeup and/or better sensor

Wow voxelman, thank you for the copious inputs!
Regarding focusing, I suppose resizing the frame and resetting distances via software would be more straightforward though, since you just need to "dislodge" the original lens so you can actually rotate and focus it (as far as I understand it comes glued or otherwise lodged in position focused to infinity).
The first website tho is an interesting source of details.

My build of the scanner is on hold since I'm waiting for all the components to arrive, raspi2+it's sd card are already here, and there has been a serious setback regarding the motor as stupid DHL asked me 27€ customs taxes over a total 20€ expenses including shipping and I had to refuse the shipment, I confide either via aliexpress or DHL to get a refund or a no-customs shipment as it should be, for this kind of transaction amount.

EDIT: after reading said linked article, it appears the real optical resolution of raspi camera is far away from the sensor's resolution, because of the microscopic lens which doesn't allow for such small detail on such small pixel physical size on the sensor itself.
It would be interesting to compare scanning results between a full 5mp scan with raspi camera, and a 2mp scan from your average lowcost usb webcam.