1 Topic by Bartimaeus

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Topic: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

There will be more photos/videos/details here soon: http://chasenachtmann.blogspot.com/2015 … t-bed.html

I wasn't satisfied with the performance of the glass bed on my Press-- nothing would stick to it. I've seen a bunch of people say to use hair spray or a glue stick, but that's a band-aid solution to me. None of the other 3d printers I've used have needed any special treatments done to the bed to make them work, and I wanted the same to be true for the Press.

I decided to try the same method of print bed as the Up! Mini 3d printer, which is a perforated board of FR4 (the stuff they use to make a lot of PCBs with). I've used the Up! Mini and have been impressed with it's "plug-and-play-ness". http://store.3dprintingsystems.com/Perfboard


I found this on DigiKey, a 10"x10" unclad FR4 Perf Board http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e … -ND/480487

I had to trim off one side so it was the width of the original bed, but once that was done it slid right in to the printer.

Was able to print with it right away after a quick z-axis recalibration.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LlbplfEjbBc/VQSIQNPRxSI/AAAAAAAAUlo/VfgzMd_qz3Q/s1600/IMG_20150313_224438.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X08z728EEi8/VQSByOBY5hI/AAAAAAAAUlI/pG5DNTD3J7A/s1600/IMG_20150313_222805.jpg

2 Reply by TiTON

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

This is very interesting.  Thank you for sharing.  I am having a hell of a time trying to get the filament to stick to the glass.  I ve done hair spray and painter tape.. without much consistency.

Out of curiosity, when you use the perf board do you still have to heat it?  I am not sure how well it conduct heat.  If you did heat it, could you share the temp.

- Ton

3 Reply by Bartimaeus

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

TiTON wrote:

This is very interesting.  Thank you for sharing.  I am having a hell of a time trying to get the filament to stick to the glass.  I ve done hair spray and painter tape.. without much consistency.

Out of curiosity, when you use the perf board do you still have to heat it?  I am not sure how well it conduct heat.  If you did heat it, could you share the temp.

- Ton


I actually just leave the bed temp settings at stock and it works just fine, provided that you give it about a minute to heat up (i.e. if you take it out and leave the bed at temp you need to wait a minute once you put it back in for the perf board to come up to temp). I haven't probed the perf board for it's surface temp but it gets pretty toasty.

The real key for this method to work is the holes: the first layer has about half the plastic go into the holes, which cool enough to solidify and resist the curling force of the cooling part. A sort of accurate way to think of it is like velcro, but with pegs inside of holes instead of hooks and loops.

I spent more time yesterday fine tuning the z-axis and added binder clips to the front corners to keep them flat, and was able to get pretty decent results on a larger test part.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YopqC__K4BU/VQhYwc5YrCI/AAAAAAAAUqo/wuW1oZP74AQ/s1600/IMG_20150316_182212.jpg

I also saw somewhere on here a suggestion to remove the internal spool holder portion of the lid and to use en external one, which worked *amazingly*. The filament has enough room to move around now and no longer gets kinks in it. I was printing with the top open before but was getting waves in the layers.

4 Reply by TiTON

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

Thanks for the reply.  I really do appreciate it.  Got a quick question for you.  I tried to remove the glass but it was kinda stuck.  Is there a trick to removing the glass?  I mean.. does it just slide out.. or is there screws to release it? 

I did notice that the filament was getting stuck.  I might also have to try it w/o the spool.

5 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

Bartimaeus wrote:

There will be more photos/videos/details here soon: http://chasenachtmann.blogspot.com/2015 … t-bed.html

I wasn't satisfied with the performance of the glass bed on my Press-- nothing would stick to it. I've seen a bunch of people say to use hair spray or a glue stick, but that's a band-aid solution to me. None of the other 3d printers I've used have needed any special treatments done to the bed to make them work, and I wanted the same to be true for the Press.

I decided to try the same method of print bed as the Up! Mini 3d printer, which is a perforated board of FR4 (the stuff they use to make a lot of PCBs with). I've used the Up! Mini and have been impressed with it's "plug-and-play-ness". http://store.3dprintingsystems.com/Perfboard


I found this on DigiKey, a 10"x10" unclad FR4 Perf Board http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/e … -ND/480487

I had to trim off one side so it was the width of the original bed, but once that was done it slid right in to the printer.

Was able to print with it right away after a quick z-axis recalibration.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LlbplfEjbBc/VQSIQNPRxSI/AAAAAAAAUlo/VfgzMd_qz3Q/s1600/IMG_20150313_224438.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-X08z728EEi8/VQSByOBY5hI/AAAAAAAAUlI/pG5DNTD3J7A/s1600/IMG_20150313_222805.jpg



Just curious, how do you get rid of the nubs left by the holes? Do you sand them? On many of prints due to the flatness I use the bed side as my finished top side. But then I also print on glass that is 90 to 110 and have no issue  with sticking. Not on the press of course. But was thinking of tryinf this on my Delta.

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6 Reply by Bartimaeus

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

carl_m1968 wrote:

Just curious, how do you get rid of the nubs left by the holes?


I usually use a putty knife or the straight blade on my leatherman. You can break some of them off with your fingernails, but that's obviously too time consuming for the whole thing.

7 Reply by seven2099

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

What would happen if you were to print directly on the aluminum bed instead of this or the glass?

8 Reply by Bartimaeus

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

TiTON wrote:

Thanks for the reply.  I really do appreciate it.  Got a quick question for you.  I tried to remove the glass but it was kinda stuck.  Is there a trick to removing the glass?  I mean.. does it just slide out.. or is there screws to release it? 

I did notice that the filament was getting stuck.  I might also have to try it w/o the spool.


There's no trick, the glass just slides out. The tabs on the side might be bent down and preventing it from moving easily.

9 Reply by pshcims

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

Bartimaeus wrote:

I've seen a bunch of people say to use hair spray or a glue stick, but that's a band-aid solution to me. None of the other 3d printers I've used have needed any special treatments done to the bed to make them work, and I wanted the same to be true for the Press.

Glue sticks, hairspray, etc. are actually very standard required treatment for lots of 3D printers, and they don't leave behind stubs on your print. It's definitely not just something the Press requires.

Personally, I don't mind using hairspray. It's quick, effective, and doesn't modify my final print.

10 Reply by Bartimaeus

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

seven2099 wrote:

What would happen if you were to print directly on the aluminum bed instead of this or the glass?

The parts wouldn't want to stick to the aluminum very well and would curl a lot. The idea for a glass print bed is that glass is actually a pretty rough surface which gives more surface area for the parts to stick to, where as aluminum can be very smooth. I know someone with a large gigabot printer and an aluminum bed that has to treat it every so often with a mixture of elmer's glue and water to get the parts to stick. A lot of printers with aluminum beds use kapton tape to help the parts stick (you can buy wide rolls like this: http://amzn.com/B00LAJNOXK).

There is also the possibility that the z axis on the Press wouldn't go high enough for the nozzle to reach the Aluminum bed, as the glass plate is ~7mm thick.

You might also have to adjust the bed temperature setting as the bare aluminum will be hotter than the glass or perf board would get with the same power.

11 Reply by seven2099 (edited by seven2099 2015-04-16 15:44:08)

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

Bartimaeus wrote:
seven2099 wrote:

What would happen if you were to print directly on the aluminum bed instead of this or the glass?

The parts wouldn't want to stick to the aluminum very well and would curl a lot. The idea for a glass print bed is that glass is actually a pretty rough surface which gives more surface area for the parts to stick to, where as aluminum can be very smooth. I know someone with a large gigabot printer and an aluminum bed that has to treat it every so often with a mixture of elmer's glue and water to get the parts to stick. A lot of printers with aluminum beds use kapton tape to help the parts stick (you can buy wide rolls like this: http://amzn.com/B00LAJNOXK).

There is also the possibility that the z axis on the Press wouldn't go high enough for the nozzle to reach the Aluminum bed, as the glass plate is ~7mm thick.

You might also have to adjust the bed temperature setting as the bare aluminum will be hotter than the glass or perf board would get with the same power.

Thanks for the info.

Actually I got impatient waiting for replies that I decided to try using painters tape on the aluminum at 100c  and I've never had better success with adhesion. Its truly faired a lot better than the glass for me so far.

On the aluminum I've printed some quite big parts with no problems compared to the glass (with abs juice/hairspray/gluestick combos, only of which some worked)

The warping however, I'm not sure how that would come about. Is that from having too high of a temp on the bed?

However, I did order this perfboard and will try it because like the OP said, I'd think it would be best for it to work without any bandaid solution and I have heard wonders of PCB on a heated bed for printing.

12 Reply by seven2099

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

aaaand seconds after i posted the fedex guy showed up with my perfboard PCB smile

Off to try it out, lets see how it fares

13 Reply by seven2099

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

aaand its magic. 10x better than the aluminum and tape, and just ridiculously better than the glass bed. No add on needed!

thanks op!

14 Reply by Claghorn

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

I wonder if printing with a raft would avoid the dimples from the holes (but then you probably just trade it for the problem of getting the raft detached :-).

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15 Reply by Bartimaeus

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

Claghorn wrote:

I wonder if printing with a raft would avoid the dimples from the holes (but then you probably just trade it for the problem of getting the raft detached :-).

That is exactly what happens with the Up! Mini printer.

On some parts it's not so bad, but other times it's sheer hell.

16 Reply by seven2099 (edited by seven2099 2015-04-17 20:50:33)

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

Bartimaeus do you know how I can relevel the bed itself?

Because no matter how I adjust the 4 screws on the top of the bed, both glass and the perf board are left with an incline which causes problems for the areas where the incline is biggest from the bed.

However the center of the bed is working perfectly I'd like to print something really big and therefore need that whole bed to be actually level

17 Reply by Claghorn

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

I wonder if the perfs contribute to the adhesion, or if a smooth FR4 would work just as well without the dimples? I do see single sided copper clad un-perforated FR4 available on ebay. Heck, you might be able to etch a heat bed on one side and use the bare FR4 on the other as the print bed :-).

Claghorn's Website

18 Reply by Bartimaeus

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

seven2099 wrote:

Bartimaeus do you know how I can relevel the bed itself?

Because no matter how I adjust the 4 screws on the top of the bed, both glass and the perf board are left with an incline which causes problems for the areas where the incline is biggest from the bed.

However the center of the bed is working perfectly I'd like to print something really big and therefore need that whole bed to be actually level


You might check out this thread, it looks like you're not the only one with that problem

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/9291/pre … ing-issue/

19 Reply by seven2099 (edited by seven2099 2015-04-18 00:27:16)

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

Bartimaeus wrote:
seven2099 wrote:

Bartimaeus do you know how I can relevel the bed itself?

Because no matter how I adjust the 4 screws on the top of the bed, both glass and the perf board are left with an incline which causes problems for the areas where the incline is biggest from the bed.

However the center of the bed is working perfectly I'd like to print something really big and therefore need that whole bed to be actually level


You might check out this thread, it looks like you're not the only one with that problem

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/9291/pre … ing-issue/

Thanks man!

Was super useful. I'm screwed because I've taken the whole thing apart and there's no way to adjust the Y-axis height sufficiently to make up for the problem. If I take a level and measure the base of the bed, its perfectly level, however if I measure the heated aluminum portion, once side is higher than the other, and on top of that it has a 3 degree slant to the front.

The bed has no way to adjust the overall heated bed's height, which is a major problem. For now I've managed to compensate a bit for it, by using some of the left over perfboard pieces under the heated bed to make up for it, however now my perfboard doesn't fit under the glass slot.

So its either, finding a way to fit the perfboard now that its a lot less severely slanted both in the x and y axis or simply go back to printing on painters' tape on the bare aluminum.

Lel

20 Reply by trayracing

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

seven2099 wrote:

The bed has no way to adjust the overall heated bed's height...

Z offset adjusts bed height relative to the nozzle. (strictly speaking it adjusts bed height relative to the z probe. Whatever.) If you swap to a thinner build plate, homing ought to compensate automagically.

If you're trying to close the gap between the top of the metal carriage arms and the metal plate so your perf board slips in with no play, run down to the hardware and get some shim stock, make some washers, and put these under the corners of the metal plate. Or just stick a little tape or shims on the top edges of your perf board.

As for leveling, the autolevel should take care of that*, assuming your bed is planar enough to be well described by a 9 point grid. For autolevel, if you're not using SP, make sure your starting G-Code has the proper commands properly ordered for home & autolevel.

*most autolevel code racks the print to match the bed. (Dunno what Marlin does though.) For a serious tilt, that might yield unacceptably out-of-square prints.

21 Reply by seven2099

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

trayracing wrote:
seven2099 wrote:

The bed has no way to adjust the overall heated bed's height...

Z offset adjusts bed height relative to the nozzle. (strictly speaking it adjusts bed height relative to the z probe. Whatever.) If you swap to a thinner build plate, homing ought to compensate automagically.

If you're trying to close the gap between the top of the metal carriage arms and the metal plate so your perf board slips in with no play, run down to the hardware and get some shim stock, make some washers, and put these under the corners of the metal plate. Or just stick a little tape or shims on the top edges of your perf board.

As for leveling, the autolevel should take care of that*, assuming your bed is planar enough to be well described by a 9 point grid. For autolevel, if you're not using SP, make sure your starting G-Code has the proper commands properly ordered for home & autolevel.

*most autolevel code racks the print to match the bed. (Dunno what Marlin does though.) For a serious tilt, that might yield unacceptably out-of-square prints.

it definitely does not compensate for the y-axis if its more than 2 degrees or so, as thats the minimum I could get mine under.
Its an improvement but I still have some slant and therefore have an area of my print bed which is worse off than the rest.

22 Reply by andersbergstrom85 (edited by andersbergstrom85 2015-06-09 19:43:19)

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

Hey dudes

I just ordered this perf board aswell after a long ass time of failprinting and voila! It's magic as seven2099 said, for sure

Kudos to Digikey for quick delivery across the globe!

EDIT: Of course mad props to Bartimaeus!

23 Reply by TheBaron

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Re: Replace Glass Bed with FR4 Perf Board

I have heard of people using straight Garolite (in fact, Taulman recommends it as the surface for printing their nylon on) but I never really thought about using perfboard. I was thinking about sandblasting some glass to give it a rougher surface, and I might have to do a perfboard / glass / sanded glass shootout.

The problem a lot of people have mentioned about buying sheets of FR4 from Mcmaster and other places is you aren't guaranteed to get a piece that's actually flat. I bet the postprocessing for making a perf board takes care of that, though.

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