1 (edited by RSandven 2012-10-28 19:47:48)

Topic: Bad first layer

I've received my printer on friday and I've printed small things with different end results.
I prints a test-square for calibration and now I've set the Extrusion Multiplier to 0.5 (diameter to 1.7mm)
But when the extruder is on the first half of the square, there is nothing coming out, just some small clogs.
The Z-offset is now on 0.35, is this "way off"?

And the print doesn't seem to stuck 100% all the way...

I'm using latest version of Repetier with Slic3r 0.9.3

Solidoodle 2 - Repetier Host V0.82 - Slic3r 0.9.7

2

Re: Bad first layer

Have you tried it with the stock solidoodle software?

3

Re: Bad first layer

Z offset should be 0 since that is handled by the screw. Also .5 is really low for extrusion multiplier.   .7 to .8 would be much more likely.

4

Re: Bad first layer

RSandven wrote:

I've set the Extrusion Multiplier to 0.5

Pretty sure the extrusion multiplier should be 1, not .5
Im sure the more experienced printers on here can confirm...

5 (edited by RSandven 2012-10-28 20:52:25)

Re: Bad first layer

Brad: I haven't compared the same file, but will do soon. Since I upgraded to the newest Merlin-firmware, can I then use Skeinforge and Pronterface?

Ian: I will try to take it back to 0 again, but thought this affected thr extruded width, so I adjusted that. Maybe that's way it doesn't fill the first half...

macmub: I reduced this after watching this http://wiki.solidoodle.com/flow-rate
But are you using 1.0?

I set the bed-temp to 85 at first layer and 80 at the rest. But can I crank the start-temp higher?

Solidoodle 2 - Repetier Host V0.82 - Slic3r 0.9.7

6

Re: Bad first layer

Maybe bump the bed upto 90-95. Compare results.

7

Re: Bad first layer

The extrusion multiplier is actually reducing the amount of plastic it pushes into the extruder.  .8 is common because solidoodle seems to set it to over-extrude from the factory, but ideally should be 1. However .5 is going to drastically reduce the amount that comes out, to the point that its probably the cause of your issues. For the first layer you can also set it to extrude extra using the advanced tab, or in worst case prints, brim, to really stick it on there good. Bed temp should be over 90 as well.
Leveling the bed is a must as well.

8

Re: Bad first layer

I think you are confusing Extrusion Width and Extrusion Multiplier.  Setting Extrusion width causes it to be calculated automatically, or you can set it explicity to something like .42.  This is the width of the thread laid down.

Extrusion Multiplier is a fudge factor for the flow rate as calculated by Slic3r.  Slic3r calculates the flow automatically based on Nozzle size, filament diameter, speed, layer height and thread width.   That calculated flow gets multiplied by the Extrusion Multiplier.  A setting of 1 means no change.  The flow rate as calculated may not in reality result in the correct flow.  If you have extrusion width set to .42, you might actually be getting something like .6mm threads.

In that case you reduce the Extrusion Multiplier to adjust Slic3r's calculation.  .42 (the width you want) is 70% of .6 (the width you got) so you would set the Extrusion Multiplier to .7 to dial back the flow.

You find out what thread width you are getting by printing a box with 1 perimeter and 0 infill.  Stop it before it puts the top on, and measure the wall.

9

Re: Bad first layer

Thanks for fast and good answers!

Cwalster: I think I got it, and I will try to up the temperature like 90-95.

Ian: That was just what I did. I put 0.42 in the width and them made a box with 1 parameter and 0 infill. And then I tweaked the Multiplier to where I got ~0.42.
But I will try up it to 0.7 or so and raise the temp. smile

Solidoodle 2 - Repetier Host V0.82 - Slic3r 0.9.7

10 (edited by RSandven 2012-10-28 23:10:56)

Re: Bad first layer

Setting the temperature to 90 helped with the sticking.

But when I put in 0 in the Z offset the plastic didn't came out, because it was so tight between the nozzle tip and the bed (correct me if that sounds odd) So i put in 0.3 now in the offset
And I tried Multiplier to 1, and there was too much plastic floating around (the nozzle pushed a lot in front of itself)
The bad picture shows multiplier of 0.7, width of 0.42 and 100% first layer (?). You can see there is too much on the first layer there.
The end result isn't thaat bad, but the wall thickness is 0.99, and it should be around 0.42 right? So that's why turned the multiplier down to 0.5 earlier. Hmm, I must be doing something wrong here...

Solidoodle 2 - Repetier Host V0.82 - Slic3r 0.9.7

11 (edited by Cwalster 2012-10-28 23:30:21)

Re: Bad first layer

If you did correctly calibrate your extruder, by all means, use those values. Your numbers are just way out of the range that I've seen here on the forums. I'd boost your first layer to 200% and try again with your .5 multiplier.

12

Re: Bad first layer

That is why it so strange. That guide seems so logical, but I thought 0.5 was a bit way off default values. I will test more tomorrow.
Maybe it's better to adjust the Z-stop screw instead of put a value in Z Offset...?

Solidoodle 2 - Repetier Host V0.82 - Slic3r 0.9.7

13

Re: Bad first layer

Use the screw, and get it to the point that you can just barely slip a sheet of paper under the nozzle.
Here is what I've been using for my first layer, it sticks like crazy and it can be a pain to get things off the bed, but it beats having to start prints multiple times. Your mileage may vary.
Under layers and perimeters, i force the first layer to .3mm
Under speed, first layer speed is set to 40%
Under advanced, first layer is set to 250%
For temperatures, I set my bed temp to 105 for the first layer. It ends up with the bed around 120 at the center and 110 at the edges.
Acetone wipes before prints to clean up the bed.
As a side note, I don't see any pictures, if there was any.

14

Re: Bad first layer

Thanks for some good info. When I tried the paper method seems like a good procedure.
I will try your settings tonight.

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Solidoodle 2 - Repetier Host V0.82 - Slic3r 0.9.7

15

Re: Bad first layer

Now I'm printing yesterdays problem parts with ease, thanks. The 250% was the big difference I think in hand with the acetone-cleaning. What is the max temp for the bed?

Solidoodle 2 - Repetier Host V0.82 - Slic3r 0.9.7

16

Re: Bad first layer

105 is probably high, but its been working so I don't screw with it. I drop the bed to 90 after the first layer.

17

Re: Bad first layer

particularly if we are mucking around with various softwares the surely Z screw should be set so that home is 0. then all rafts and first layers can be set in software only. I would have thought setting that damn awkward screw once a week to maintain a zero height at home and twiddling settings in software is a much more stable long term solution to calibration than adjusting screw all the time to change a raft.

I have had it working well, but then changed the micro to the 128k and the new Marlin, last night I was playing with rafts, I was trying to get rafts to be more easily removed from the bottom layer. (skeinforge/pronterface)

So today I sliced the panelolu cover and it was the biggest mess I have ever seen on the SD .. complete fail. Homing showed the nozzle nearly a mm above the bed. So I just decided to go with 0 is 0 and reset most of the skeinforge parameters back to defaults.
orbit pretty much scraped the nozzle on the bed, must disable that.. the raft looks to be nearly a mm wide, letting it print currently as at least it is working.

I also changed the bottom offset to zero, now the raft was printed at 0.51mm according to the LCD, additional height over layer thickness default of 0.5
according to skein docs that should put first slice at 0.15mm .. so where does the 0.51mm come from ?
I assume its added to a first layer of 0.3mm plus whatever is in the raft settings...

not terribly intuitive this skeinforge, will perservere..

18

Re: Bad first layer

If you set Altitude and Additional Height to 0, then the first layer will start at the homing height set by the endstop.  This way you can eyeball the first layer and control the squish by adjusting the screw.  This is a quicker way to dial it in than reslicing every time with SF.

If you want to be more objective about it, you can set the endstop to home directly on the bed.  Then set Altitude to 0 and Additional Height Over Layer Thickness to 1.  This would make the first layer the same as all other layers at your set layer height.

If you are doing a raft, you would make it wider by turning up the flow, or increasing Base Layer Thickness Over Layer Thickness.  If you aren't using a raft, you can turn up the Object First Layer flow rate or turn down the feed rate to create a wider extrusion.  This will give you a wider thread for the first layer, giving more area for sticking, without reducing the height of the first layer like you do when squishing with the Z screw.  If the height of the model needs to be dimensionally accurate to .1mm, this would be the way to go.  However I don't think Skeinforge will know what the actual extrusion width of the first layer will be, so there may be a bit of a lip at the bottom.

In Slic3r, it can be a good idea to home directly on the platform.  Set the first layer height directly to .3.  If you are printing at .3, then that makes it the same as the rest of the print.  If you are printing at .1mm a first layer of .3 will help smooth out any irregularities in the print bed. 

To improve stick, you can tell Slic3r to use a much larger Extrusion Width for the first layer to create more surface area for sticking.  Since Slic3r knows how wide the first layer extrusion is supposed to be, it will account for that in the toolpath.  As a result, you should be able to get an extra wide base layer without getting a lip on the bottom of the print like you get when squishing it mechanically.

The trick to this is setting the endstop to home on the bed.  When you get down to tenths of a millimeter, it can be really hard to see if it is touching.  If you see the nozzle rise up a bit, it is probably already pushing, which is more than you want.

If you are printing on aluminum with kapton, you can use a multimeter to find out when the nozzle touches, by having the nozzle and bed complete a circuit.  I demonstrated this in a video here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXhD2MQRs4A

If you are printing on glass, you could tape a metal feeler gauge to the bed and touch the lead to that.  Then when you are done adjusting the endstop, it will be at a known height.  You could turn the screw the right amount to adjust it the rest of the way, or compensate in software.  In Slic3r you would do this with Z Offset, and in Skeinforge you would use Altitude.

19

Re: Bad first layer

thanks for the insights Ian.
I wasn't really after a dead zero as such, not being able to fit a sheet of paper was close enough for me without actually touching.
So ..  the last print is lovely and flat, there is no way the raft is ever going to come off that front panel, luckily its grey, it looks like a tiny version of corrugated iron .. but it never lifted a corner and is very useable, it just has texture. It came off the bed with no hassle anyway.
increased bottom/elevate to 0.4mm, this left the raft as is like you say, but the first layer was printed at 1.5mm when the raft was still at 0.51. Looks like I should be able to get this critter off .. thats all I was really after. The fill ratio of the raft I have set at 0.3 and it looks like its greater than 0.5 currently.

Yesterday I played with the base layer thickness over layer thickness without much success, dropping from a value of 2 to 1.5 still left a 0.81mm wide raft, I am not sure why it did not change, then I changed the flow rate and it printed the raft lines much closer together, they where still just as dfficult to remove, I was coming to the conclusion that printing first layer at a lower extruder temp might be an option, it seems like its just melting the raft and the bottom together.
I have an hour to go to see how much easier this will be to remove and whether the raft is embedded in the bottom layer..

20

Re: Bad first layer

If you are trying to make the raft easier to remove, experiment with the interface settings.  The raft settings are aimed at getting a good stick to the bed.  Interface is a layer that goes between the raft and object.  Set it to 1 layer to turn it on.  Turn down the flow rate to get thinner threads, and experiment with that and the infill density to see if you can get something that will let go easily.

21

Re: Bad first layer

IanJohnson wrote:

If you are trying to make the raft easier to remove, experiment with the interface settings.  The raft settings are aimed at getting a good stick to the bed.  Interface is a layer that goes between the raft and object.  Set it to 1 layer to turn it on.  Turn down the flow rate to get thinner threads, and experiment with that and the infill density to see if you can get something that will let go easily.

I could see a great tutorial being written on topics like this on the Wiki.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.