401 Reply by redbarret (edited by redbarret 2014-12-03 19:13:28)

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Re: Odd circle test results

Of the "part"? The Repetier I got from the site can start working for me even when nothing is heated.
But of course I check manually both of the numbers before printing.

I used to get that effect of the filmament grinding and shredding when the extrusion steps per mm in EEPROM was set to 138. I think it just went away when I set it to 105.8 after running the flow rate calibration (video in the wiki by Ian).
But then again I also messed with the VREFs at that time and bunch of other stuff, so I'm not sure.

All I can tell you for sure is I've had that shredding effect and I've only used Solidoodle filament till now.

Solidoodle 4

402 Reply by nbourg8 (edited by nbourg8 2014-12-03 22:03:44)

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Re: Odd circle test results

redbarret wrote:

Of the "part"? The Repetier I got from the site can start working for me even when nothing is heated.
But of course I check manually both of the numbers before printing.

All I can tell you for sure is I've had that shredding effect and I've only used Solidoodle filament till now.

There's an option in Slicer which prevents the start of the print until the temperatures are met.  It's in Filament Settings of Slicer. Also in Repetier it's in the Printer Settings.  I think they all have to match up or you'll be forever waiting for temperatures to rise. 

I personally use a bit of G-Code at the beginning to prevent errors with using the interfaces.

403 Reply by n2ri (edited by n2ri 2014-12-03 22:08:30)

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Re: Odd circle test results

redbarret wrote:

Weird, I have two rolls of Solidoodle filament and they both seem to be 1.73mm.
That filament shredding happens for me when I get clog or extruding at lower temp than needed or extruding too fast so the filament doesn't melt and come out as fast as it goes in.


HAH... I knew I wasnt the only one having issues with SD extruders not heating fast enough. thats one of the main reasons I want E3Dv6 plus swappable nozzles and exotic filament use. mostly when using thicker layers. carriages need printed at .1mm 100% infill for best results since they are crucial for printing long term

wish Solidoodle would get to last years tech mods b4 next year hehe

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

404 Reply by nbourg8

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Re: Odd circle test results

Today's Update:
I got the y-bracket's on the case frame and started to put the pulleys on the x-axis carriages when I over tightened the right carriage pulley.  I did this trying to "clamp" in the linear bearings.  The clamping worked but the pulley snapped at the screw.  See photo below.

http://i58.tinypic.com/28s7eht.jpg

Luckily, I have friends on this forum so I should be up and running in about 2 weeks.  Such an unnecessary delay but I was delayed anyhow as I forgot to print the new extruder tension arms and mk5 mount for the e3d v6.  Such is life, you can never prepare enough.  I should have taken the advice of others and printed 2 of each part as backups before I began.

Note: Those carriages by Lawsy are TIGHT.  Like NO movement at all.  Crazy snug.  I'm a little worried about gritty/sandy linear bearings but since ALL 12 of the bearings are the same, I'm going to chalk it up to 'that's just how they are'.

405 Reply by pirvan

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Re: Odd circle test results

I don't know about the SD4, but the rods that came with my SD3 were out of spec, and LM8UU bearings were too tight to work on those rods.  I ended up buying new 8mm rods to replace the "Y" and "X" carriage rods.

The new chromed rods I got are smooth like glass, and the bearings glide on them.

You can read about this here:
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/5118/sol … -bearings/

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

406 Reply by redbarret

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Re: Odd circle test results

Cyanocrylate is reaally good at gluing broken ABS parts together.

Solidoodle 4

407 Reply by jagowilson (edited by jagowilson 2014-12-04 07:13:43)

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Re: Odd circle test results

I'll get those parts out to you Friday. I have it all done except the right carriage piece.

Measure the distance between your x rods. They are probably just bowed a bit. When you get up and running do some super fast prints, it'll straighten them out. In the long term you'll want new rods though.

Also your prints look good. Can't wait to see what you can do once you get these upgrades done.

408 Reply by nbourg8 (edited by nbourg8 2014-12-04 14:43:57)

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Re: Odd circle test results

jagowilson wrote:

I'll get those parts out to you Friday. I have it all done except the right carriage piece.

I heart Jagowilson right now!

jagowilson wrote:

Measure the distance between your x rods. They are probably just bowed a bit. When you get up and running do some super fast prints, it'll straighten them out. In the long term you'll want new rods though.

That's a good idea actually. 

jagowilson wrote:

Also your prints look good. Can't wait to see what you can do once you get these upgrades done.

Really?  Well I guess you haven't seen the circles I've had to drill out yet.  Because the circles have the flat part due to some inherent defect, the parts actually come out shorter in one direction than the other.  Inherently I compensated by doing the steps/mm but it's not the best solution; fixing a symptom instead of the cause.

409 Reply by jagowilson (edited by jagowilson 2014-12-04 14:57:05)

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Re: Odd circle test results

Interesting you had to drill it out. Your circles must've been worse than mine wink I tapped my rods in with a rubber mallet, worked just fine. Holes will pretty much always be a little undersized due to the way extrusion space is quantized, but ABS is pretty friendly about expanding and threading so this isn't really a problem.

And yes they do look good. The picture isn't perfect but I don't see any lash along Y which is good because I have still not entirely eliminated it*. Waiting until I get back from break to really beef up my drive rod. I'm gonna go nuts and put pillows on the left and right as well as bearings on the sides. Should be able to run my belts pretty tight without worrying about equal tension especially once I get my beefier Y motor in there. Got a dial indicator so If I get time before I leave I'll measure my current lash and post the results.

*But your parts will fit well. It's more like resonance as grob pointed out, I'm not convinced it's true belt lash.

410 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Odd circle test results

redbarret wrote:

Cyanocrylate is reaally good at gluing broken ABS parts together.

Acetone is even better and just a strong or stronger than anything that comes out of your printer.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

411 Reply by redbarret (edited by redbarret 2014-12-04 15:24:54)

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Re: Odd circle test results

wardjr wrote:

Acetone is even better

I'm not sure about that. Heard that before but from my personal experience testing both cyanocrylate was better and faster for both ABS and acrylic.

Solidoodle 4

412 Reply by wardjr (edited by wardjr 2014-12-04 15:59:00)

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Re: Odd circle test results

redbarret wrote:
wardjr wrote:

Acetone is even better

I'm not sure about that. Heard that before but from my personal experience testing both cyanocrylate was better and faster for both ABS and acrylic.

Perhaps you have diluted acetone which is rather common.  There is actual science to support my claim, so have a search.  I have also done my own testing and haven't found anything stronger than pure acetone.  For glueing parts back together it helps to mix some ABS filament in with it (ABS slurry).

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

413 Reply by nbourg8

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Re: Odd circle test results

Obviously, the main reason why the part snapped was because I over tightened.  But it didn't help that I printed the part such that the layers were vertical (parallel to the direction of force).  After reviewing the shear, it is in fact a perfect shear along the printed layer.  Just adding to injury I guess.

414 Reply by tealvince

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Re: Odd circle test results

@nbourgh8 good luck on your enhancements.  If they don't solve the problem I have an idea to fix it from another angle.  From your original post it appears your backlash is completely reproducible as the layers line up nicely.  As such it seems an ideal candidate for a software fix.  Removing backlash from a mechanical system without introducing binding is inherently a hard problem to solve, but simply introducing a delta to one axis' coordinates every time the carriage changes direction is easy.  This could be done in firmware but when I get back to a pc I can write a simple gcode post processor to test this solution.

415 Reply by nbourg8

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Re: Odd circle test results

pirvan wrote:

I don't know about the SD4, but the rods that came with my SD3 were out of spec, and LM8UU bearings were too tight to work on those rods.  I ended up buying new 8mm rods to replace the "Y" and "X" carriage rods.

The new chromed rods I got are smooth like glass, and the bearings glide on them.

You can read about this here:
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/5118/sol … -bearings/

My rods aren't too tight.  I can slide them on the rods with ease.  But they do grind or feel like sand is in the ball bearings inside the bearing enclosure.  It's odd. I posted a video of this effect
http://youtu.be/m7xt57wql4o



I also posted a video of a problem I discovered last night where the y-axis drive rod doesn't exactly fit perfectly in the bushing + 2 frame bushings.  Maybe this is a manufacturing flaw?
http://youtu.be/dzEo5fewmmA

416 Reply by nbourg8

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Re: Odd circle test results

tealvince wrote:

@nbourgh8 good luck on your enhancements.  If they don't solve the problem I have an idea to fix it from another angle.  From your original post it appears your backlash is completely reproducible as the layers line up nicely.  As such it seems an ideal candidate for a software fix.  Removing backlash from a mechanical system without introducing binding is inherently a hard problem to solve, but simply introducing a delta to one axis' coordinates every time the carriage changes direction is easy.  This could be done in firmware but when I get back to a pc I can write a simple gcode post processor to test this solution.

Haha a little late since the hole printer is a mess right now.  Late is still better than never though!

I'll definitely keep this in mind when I get the thing back together.  Thanks Tealvince!

417 Reply by redbarret (edited by redbarret 2014-12-04 20:07:03)

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Re: Odd circle test results

wardjr wrote:

Perhaps you have diluted acetone which is rather common.  There is actual science to support my claim, so have a search.  I have also done my own testing and haven't found anything stronger than pure acetone.  For glueing parts back together it helps to mix some ABS filament in with it (ABS slurry).

I know there's a science behind why it's better (it melts the plastic parts and turns them into 1 piece like welding metal does), however in practice it doesn't work as well as cyanocrylate for me. Just the speed of the process is too slow. And when it does stick, it seems as good as cyanocrylate, which I've used to glue parts kept in -50C conditions with no problem. Maybe it isn't pure enough acetone like you said, I've used everything I could find though.

tealvince wrote:

Removing backlash from a mechanical system without introducing binding is inherently a hard problem to solve, but simply introducing a delta to one axis' coordinates every time the carriage changes direction is easy.  This could be done in firmware but when I get back to a pc I can write a simple gcode post processor to test this solution.

Interesting, please keep us informed. Never heard of this anywhere as a backlash solution.

Solidoodle 4

418 Reply by Claghorn

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Re: Odd circle test results

wardjr wrote:

Perhaps you have diluted acetone which is rather common.  There is actual science to support my claim, so have a search.  I have also done my own testing and haven't found anything stronger than pure acetone.  For glueing parts back together it helps to mix some ABS filament in with it (ABS slurry).

Of course, if you want to glue just one specific spot, and not have capillary action sucking acetone throughout the part, then the gel version of cyano-acrylic really does have advantages :-).

Claghorn's Website

419 Reply by pirvan

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Re: Odd circle test results

nbourg8 wrote:
pirvan wrote:

I don't know about the SD4, but the rods that came with my SD3 were out of spec, and LM8UU bearings were too tight to work on those rods.  I ended up buying new 8mm rods to replace the "Y" and "X" carriage rods.

The new chromed rods I got are smooth like glass, and the bearings glide on them.

You can read about this here:
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/5118/sol … -bearings/

My rods aren't too tight.  I can slide them on the rods with ease.  But they do grind or feel like sand is in the ball bearings inside the bearing enclosure.  It's odd. I posted a video of this effect
http://youtu.be/m7xt57wql4o

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  When I measured the rods that came with my SD3, they were larger than 8mm.  Not by much, but enough to make the bearings grind and feel gritty.  One of the rods was so bad, that as I was sliding the bearing back and forth, it destroyed it (the balls came out).

I then decided to just replace the rods, so I bought a set for about $30-40, I don't remember the exact amount, and these were perfect. 

If you seriously consider using LM8UU or LM8LUU bearings, I strongly recommend replacing the rods. Greasing up the rods in an attempt to smooth out the grittiness, will eventually result in screwed up bearings.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

420 Reply by nbourg8 (edited by nbourg8 2014-12-04 21:01:47)

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Re: Odd circle test results

pirvan wrote:

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  When I measured the rods that came with my SD3, they were larger than 8mm.  Not by much, but enough to make the bearings grind and feel gritty.  One of the rods was so bad, that as I was sliding the bearing back and forth, it destroyed it (the balls came out).

I then decided to just replace the rods, so I bought a set for about $30-40, I don't remember the exact amount, and these were perfect. 

If you seriously consider using LM8UU or LM8LUU bearings, I strongly recommend replacing the rods. Greasing up the rods in an attempt to smooth out the grittiness, will eventually result in screwed up bearings.

Damn!  That's not what I wanted to hear.  Another $50 down the drain....

What about the y-axis drive rod.  Did you have the odd bending I video'd of the y-axis drive rod between the rear mounted frame bushings?
http://youtu.be/dzEo5fewmmA

421 Reply by jagowilson

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Re: Odd circle test results

Well... My brand new rods from McMaster-Carr have that exact same feel and tbey are 8mm all the way. As long as tbey glide smoothly (flick them and see how far tbey go), you are fine.

422 Reply by nbourg8

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Re: Odd circle test results

Well I'm going to keep the rods I have, at least until the printer is up and running again.  Obviously the grinding isn't a good thing but i'll replace both the rods and bearings when/if they cause me problems or fail to work.

423 Reply by grob (edited by grob 2014-12-04 22:18:43)

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Re: Odd circle test results

tealvince wrote:

@nbourgh8 good luck on your enhancements.  If they don't solve the problem I have an idea to fix it from another angle.  From your original post it appears your backlash is completely reproducible as the layers line up nicely.  As such it seems an ideal candidate for a software fix.  Removing backlash from a mechanical system without introducing binding is inherently a hard problem to solve, but simply introducing a delta to one axis' coordinates every time the carriage changes direction is easy.  This could be done in firmware but when I get back to a pc I can write a simple gcode post processor to test this solution.

Fair idea: if it's consistent, why not just compensate for it?

Backlash/hysteresis compensation is already implemented in the Adrian/Lawsy version of marlin for solidoodle. Find that through this forum, have a look:
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/317/soli … ate-thread
https://github.com/ozadr1an/Solidoodle-Marlin_v1
If you've installed that, or intend to, you can use M99 to set the backlash compensation; once you've got it right (by measuring directly with a dial gauge or similar, or measuring up calibration pieces) you can stick it in your start g-code in slic3r or RH.

I use it for the last little bit in the z axis to get the first layer accurate, but it works in X and Y also!

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
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424 Reply by pirvan (edited by pirvan 2014-12-04 23:56:51)

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Re: Odd circle test results

jagowilson wrote:

Well... My brand new rods from McMaster-Carr have that exact same feel and tbey are 8mm all the way. As long as tbey glide smoothly (flick them and see how far tbey go), you are fine.

These (LM8UU & LM8LUU) are linear bearings with recirculating balls.  The coefficient of friction is very small.  So on a smooth and even rod, a bearing that is free of debris and grease, should slide freely.

Put the bearing at one end of the rod, tilt the rod about 20° or so and the bearing should freely slide down.  The weight of the bearing alone should be enough to get it moving, no need to nudge it.  A "flick" should send the bearing from one end to the other with the rod horizontal.   If the bearing slows down or stops you have too much friction. 

As for the "perceived" bend in the back "Y" rod, I think that's a byproduct of misalignment between the holes in the side, the support bracket and gravity.

If you want to test a rod to see if it's perfectly straight, get a large enough piece of glass or better yet a mirror, put the rod on it, then tilt the mirror slightly to make the rod roll back and forth.  If you hear "clicking" the rod is bent, if you just hear an even rolling sound, the rod is straight.  The clicking comes from the bent surface rising then falling and hitting the glass.  Once you hear it you'll know what I mean.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

425 Reply by jagowilson (edited by jagowilson 2014-12-05 00:04:18)

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Re: Odd circle test results

That's what I meant. As long as the bearing goes from one end of the rod to the other on its own with a flick or tilt, it is fine. Mine do and have that gritty effect. All of them. And the quality of the rod is no question (I mean, it's MC), but LM8UUs are subject to exteme variation. I had to throw away 4 of the 12 I got because they would just snag.

Maybe I just got bad bearings but even in the original lawsy carriage thread there is discussion of this gritty effect despite free movement. You have to break them in.

Basically what I'm saying is don't stress if it isn't moving perfectly smooth on X once you put it all together. It will in time. As long as each bearing slides freely on its own, you have nothing to worry about.