xanfaster wrote:

cmetzel wrote:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but if you dislike it so much, just move along.  I for one won't miss you.

Bit of a contradiction there. Me thinks.

Anyway I like it here.

I have not written anything about anybody personally in a bad way, or used profanity or anything else. I am sure most forum users would let me know. But I can assure that I would not do that.

However, I am called a Troll because I had the audacity to actually say some truths about a product and offer my opinion of how it maybe could be improved.

I for one would not have an 'absolute hissy fit' just because someone said that they thought my car was ugly.

I really would not care. Also I would not brand him a troll, even if he had come over and made the remark intentionally.

I will continue to post stuff I belive is interesting, because compared to other forums I have been on, in general the folk here seem reasonable intelligent and sensible and the information, by most, is really interesting.

Xan

The only problem I have with most of the 3d printing companies making under $3000 printers is 99% of them don't have stock.  Some offer 2 week delivery and the others are 8-10 weeks and you pay for the whole thing up front.

Not customer friendly.  Most consumers are not going to shell out $500-$3000 for something that don't get for months.

All of the different versions (since that's all they basically are) have their good and bad points.  Most use the same parts, just arranged a little different.

What will make and break a company is customer service.  I personally am dissatisfied with SDs so far, got told 3 different stories so far on where my printer is and I am not the only one.  I think SD as a company has potential but they need to get customer service working.

Two words - Chevy Volt. We've (humans) been making cars for a while, and that one had (possibly even has...) a waiting list that was ridiculous. Same thing with the Leaf.

Was it because it was a car? No. It was because they were some of the first fully electric cars. There have been problems, batteries catching fire after fender benders, batteries dying for no reason... but people still love their cars.

Same thing here. This is still fledgling tech, and people will need to be patient for it and most likely roll with the punches when you start seeing the problems.

Once it finally matures, and more of the industrial tech comes to the home side, you'll be able to buy a reasonably priced machine with very few issues out of the box.

I have not written anything about anybody personally in a bad way, or used profanity or anything else. I am sure most forum users would let me know. But I can assure that I would not do that.

However, I am called a Troll because I had the audacity to actually say some truths about a product and offer my opinion of how it maybe could be improved.

Nope, you're called a troll because you've come to a product specific forum, only to say bad things about that product.

You think that the solidoodle printer sucks? fine, but why not just leave us with the folly of our own poor purchasing decisions?

While I for one would like to see Solidoodle improve their z-axis design, I don't fault them for what they have nor do I think it addresses their main problems in becoming mass market.  The design already compares well with other reprap products out there.

what I find most annoying is that, the solidoodle compares well to most rep raps because, well by and large it's exactly the same as most repraps.

simple cartesian machine, open source extruders, open source nozzles, open source circuit boards, open source heaters. running with open source software...

yet even though they've borrowed most of the design from the open source hardware community, (and there is nothing wrong with that), it's a little galling when you ask, what's the resistor part used in the hotend, and they can't/won't say. pretending it's company secret IP, but if you go to the reprap pages then you can narrow it down to a couple of choices. the only secret is which design was pulled down and chosen as the one that they were going to copy!

The solidoodle people perhaps need to start remembering that a lot of designs that they are using at the moment are released under GPL. meaning, if they are using as is, then no they don't need to release source files, (in which case there is no company secret at all! -just let us know what design so we can fix out machines!!) if they have changed the design, using different components then it is an obligation under the terms of the license that they release source designs. -in which case, it's not really an ask nicely what design did you copy so I can know what replacement parts to use, it's a case that you must tell me.

I've never felt the need to throw my computer out of the window, despite the fact that it didn't come with any office software and I had to make a choice between multiple open source office type applications, or several commercial applications.

I agree with you on this, it seems like it should be easy to implement as well.

this would be more practical with a more powerful heater, so one that could come up to temperature in seconds, but whilst people are going to need to wait a couple of minutes for the hot end to heat, they are going to think, I'll just be a second to quickly change this...also, yes, I wish that there were spare nozzles too, considering how cheap they are! I wish they'd just stick one in as a part of the pack.

and have the added advantage of not having to poke holes in the kapton square.

to be fair they do offer a case, but it's billed as some kind of non-essential optional extra. it'd be better if it's virtues were more extolled.

I disagree here, the trouble is that most documentation for reprap style machines is written by rep-rappers themselves, not necessarily a bad thing, but there are a whole load of people with a load of different writing styles, for some of whom English is not their first language, any manual compiled like this would be disjointed to say the least.

if there was going to be a printed manual the then they should just do it properly, write it properly, in house not try to rely on the world to support a commercial product for them. though it's still great that this forum is a better resource than the official FAQ or the google group. but it also feels a bit like... why can't they get it together a bit more!

which kind of leads back to the tech support...

I'm kind of tired of hearing about how people get no response, or how people get told that they can't be told what the part numbers are as they are trade secrets...
first you must pay to ship a part back and then we'll pay to ship a part to you...

as I say, at the end of the day I just think get it together a bit more...
I don't really think it's the product that's lacking... the only part of the experience that's being a real let down is all the stories that we keep hearing about the company!

We're all different.  I'd trade all of that for no banding out of the box.

I love this forum.  Even troll threads end up in thoughtful discussion.  LOL

This might surprise you, but so would I. 

My suggestions were not my personal gripes, just my observations based on what complainers have posted and experience having run a small company.  I knew what I was getting into when I got my SD2, and don't mind a little digging and hacking.

However I've come to know (and am often reminded so by my wife!) that most people are not like me; they expect a lot more hand-holding for $500-$600.  I think Solidoodle is probably encountering this reality, and given that their margins--I bet--are not that large, my suggestions were ways they could potentially improve the new-customer experience without adding to their per-unit hardware costs.

cmetzel wrote:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but if you dislike it so much, just move along.  I for one won't miss you.

Bit of a contradiction there. Me thinks.

Anyway I like it here.

I have not written anything about anybody personally in a bad way, or used profanity or anything else. I am sure most forum users would let me know. But I can assure that I would not do that.

However, I am called a Troll because I had the audacity to actually say some truths about a product and offer my opinion of how it maybe could be improved.

I for one would not have an 'absolute hissy fit' just because someone said that they thought my car was ugly.

I really would not care. Also I would not brand him a troll, even if he had come over and made the remark intentionally.

I will continue to post stuff I belive is interesting, because compared to other forums I have been on, in general the folk here seem reasonable intelligent and sensible and the information, by most, is really interesting.

Xan

The only problem I have with most of the 3d printing companies making under $3000 printers is 99% of them don't have stock.  Some offer 2 week delivery and the others are 8-10 weeks and you pay for the whole thing up front.

Not customer friendly.  Most consumers are not going to shell out $500-$3000 for something that don't get for months.

All of the different versions (since that's all they basically are) have their good and bad points.  Most use the same parts, just arranged a little different.

What will make and break a company is customer service.  I personally am dissatisfied with SDs so far, got told 3 different stories so far on where my printer is and I am not the only one.  I think SD as a company has potential but they need to get customer service working.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but if you dislike it so much, just move along.  I for one won't miss you.

Bit of a contradiction there. Me thinks.

Anyway I like it here.

I have not written anything about anybody personally in a bad way, or used profanity or anything else. I am sure most forum users would let me know. But I can assure that I would not do that.

However, I am called a Troll because I had the audacity to actually say some truths about a product and offer my opinion of how it maybe could be improved.

I for one would not have an 'absolute hissy fit' just because someone said that they thought my car was ugly.

I really would not care. Also I would not brand him a troll, even if he had come over and made the remark intentionally.

I will continue to post stuff I belive is interesting, because compared to other forums I have been on, in general the folk here seem reasonable intelligent and sensible and the information, by most, is really interesting.

Xan

IanJohnson wrote:

I for one think they are trying to grow a little too rapidly based on their current design, but if expanding helps them create a better product, then I guess it's worth it.

I hope their improvements in manufacturing, and increased sales will make it possible to use better quality components (leadscrews and nuts) without increasing the price.  The story of Solidoodle should be innovation in reducing price without compromising quality, and the Z axis is a significant failure in that regard.

While I for one would like to see Solidoodle improve their z-axis design, I don't fault them for what they have nor do I think it addresses their main problems in becoming mass market.  The design already compares well with other reprap products out there, and a little wobble is annoying but isn't going to make a potential user want to throw the unit out the window.  This, IMHO, is what does:

1) No Included Software -  Multiple open source software that the user has to download isn't acceptable for a mass-market product.  Instead, a set of software packages need to be bundled together and wrapped with a decent polished UI (one interface, no multiple windows) and installer and delivered on a single dvd included with the printer.  The existing external packages should still be available for people who want them, but the average consumer doesn't want to have to assemble them.

2) Un-Smart software - The software needs to be smart enough to recognize printability problems with objects and recommend solutions.  For instance, if the base layer is too small relative to the object height, it should recommend or automatically add a raft or brim.

3) Clogs - They're too easy to get and the consequences too severe.  The printer should ship with a warning label on the extruder that says "WARNING - Do no leave print head heated above 80 degrees C when idle for more than 10 minutes."  If possible, the firmware should automatically prevent this from happening.  To make the consequences less severe, the nozzle needs to be easily removable (ala mk4) and an extra nozzle needs to be included.  Not only does this keep the printer from being immediately incapacitated with a single clog, it sets reasonable user expectations and turns nozzles into a consumable item.

4) Leveling necessary but too hard.  Thumbscrews should come installed beneath the bed leveling screws and the z-stop adjustment needs to be made more accessible, potentially by a knob whose edge extends through a slot in the frame.  A built-in depth gauge would be nice, but at the very least, the software could have a built-in bed calibration procedure, perhaps by printing predefined circles at different locations on the bed.  In fact, simple calibration cubes and starter objects should be included as well.

5) Curling - Some sort of insulated case needs to come standard, even if it's made mostly of cardboard or MDF.

6) Printed manual - A $500 printer needs to come with a well-written printed manual, even if it's culled from wiki articles and just manufactured in limited runs or printed on the fly using lulu or cafePress.  Making customers search online is unbecoming for a product in this price range.

7) Technical support - good support is an art, and it sounds like SD has been making some mistakes as they grow with response times, consistency, or occasionally being too blunt with customers.  They need to make sure customers hear back right away, even if the answer is a polite "We'll check and get back to you 48 hours."  When they do hear back, the answers need to be better thought out, even if that means they are more canned.  As the product becomes more mass market, the support volume will only go up, so it becomes more critical that nobody representing the company says anything that could be misinterpreted when posted up on an open forum.

My $.02.

We're all different.  I'd trade all of that for no banding out of the box.

I love this forum.  Even troll threads end up in thoughtful discussion.  LOL

I for one think they are trying to grow a little too rapidly based on their current design, but if expanding helps them create a better product, then I guess it's worth it.

I hope their improvements in manufacturing, and increased sales will make it possible to use better quality components (leadscrews and nuts) without increasing the price.  The story of Solidoodle should be innovation in reducing price without compromising quality, and the Z axis is a significant failure in that regard.

While I for one would like to see Solidoodle improve their z-axis design, I don't fault them for what they have nor do I think it addresses their main problems in becoming mass market.  The design already compares well with other reprap products out there, and a little wobble is annoying but isn't going to make a potential user want to throw the unit out the window.  This, IMHO, is what does:

1) No Included Software -  Multiple open source software that the user has to download isn't acceptable for a mass-market product.  Instead, a set of software packages need to be bundled together and wrapped with a decent polished UI (one interface, no multiple windows) and installer and delivered on a single dvd included with the printer.  The existing external packages should still be available for people who want them, but the average consumer doesn't want to have to assemble them.

2) Un-Smart software - The software needs to be smart enough to recognize printability problems with objects and recommend solutions.  For instance, if the base layer is too small relative to the object height, it should recommend or automatically add a raft or brim.

3) Clogs - They're too easy to get and the consequences too severe.  The printer should ship with a warning label on the extruder that says "WARNING - Do no leave print head heated above 80 degrees C when idle for more than 10 minutes."  If possible, the firmware should automatically prevent this from happening.  To make the consequences less severe, the nozzle needs to be easily removable (ala mk4) and an extra nozzle needs to be included.  Not only does this keep the printer from being immediately incapacitated with a single clog, it sets reasonable user expectations and turns nozzles into a consumable item.

4) Leveling necessary but too hard.  Thumbscrews should come installed beneath the bed leveling screws and the z-stop adjustment needs to be made more accessible, potentially by a knob whose edge extends through a slot in the frame.  A built-in depth gauge would be nice, but at the very least, the software could have a built-in bed calibration procedure, perhaps by printing predefined circles at different locations on the bed.  In fact, simple calibration cubes and starter objects should be included as well.

5) Curling - Some sort of insulated case needs to come standard, even if it's made mostly of cardboard or MDF.

6) Printed manual - A $500 printer needs to come with a well-written printed manual, even if it's culled from wiki articles and just manufactured in limited runs or printed on the fly using lulu or cafePress.  Making customers search online is unbecoming for a product in this price range.

7) Technical support - good support is an art, and it sounds like SD has been making some mistakes as they grow with response times, consistency, or occasionally being too blunt with customers.  They need to make sure customers hear back right away, even if the answer is a polite "We'll check and get back to you 48 hours."  When they do hear back, the answers need to be better thought out, even if that means they are more canned.  As the product becomes more mass market, the support volume will only go up, so it becomes more critical that nobody representing the company says anything that could be misinterpreted when posted up on an open forum.

My $.02.

I don't think a Solidoodle, or any printer is for "everybody".  3D printers make stuff, so they are for people who want make stuff.  The place you go for tools for making stuff is generally the hardware store, so the proper mainstream location for one of these is more Lowes than Walmart.   If it is a fantastic tool for the workshop, the current aesthetic is works just fine next to the table saws and routing tables.  If a 3D printer is supposed to be a consumer electronics device to sit on the desk next to the paper printer that never gets used either, then it's definitely not pretty enough.

The current hype is that 3D printers are an all in one solution for making anything, limited only by your imagination.  It belongs by itself on your desk along with the inkjet which itself can make any image you can photograph or imagine in Illustrator/Photoshop.   Anyone who buys based on the current level of hype will be disappointed, because the printer is an integral part of the digital workshop, but not the whole workshop by itself.  It has the greatest potential if you see the prints as a starting point.   They can be finished and painted to live as something more than a simple chunk of plastic, or used as a part of a larger project which couldn't have been attempted otherwise. 

Something that looks like a Cube on the shelf at Walmart promises to be everything to everybody, and will be bought by people who will quickly get bored with printing plastic tchotchkes.  Something that looks like a current Solidoodle on the shelf at Lowes will be bought by someone who is already accustomed to making things with a variety of tools.

Agree

Why do you keep addressing Sam?  Do you actually think he's reading this?

I would hope so. To see what is going on, what can be improved and be more successful.

I wish the guy the best of luck.

I did not mean to offend about the pretty comment and I am sure it will not make him (Sam) loose sleep.

After all, I am an ugly sod and I do not lose sleep over it.

I for one think they are trying to grow a little too rapidly based on their current design, but if expanding helps them create a better product, then I guess it's worth it.

I hope their improvements in manufacturing, and increased sales will make it possible to use better quality components (leadscrews and nuts) without increasing the price.  The story of Solidoodle should be innovation in reducing price without compromising quality, and the Z axis is a significant failure in that regard.

The current hype is that 3D printers are an all in one solution for making anything, limited only by your imagination.  It belongs by itself on your desk along with the inkjet which itself can make any image you can photograph or imagine in Illustrator/Photoshop.   Anyone who buys based on the current level of hype will be disappointed, because the printer is an integral part of the digital workshop, but not the whole workshop by itself.  It has the greatest potential if you see the prints as a starting point.   They can be finished and painted to live as something more than a simple chunk of plastic, or used as a part of a larger project which couldn't have been attempted otherwise. 

Something that looks like a Cube on the shelf at Walmart promises to be everything to everybody, and will be bought by people who will quickly get bored with printing plastic tchotchkes.  Something that looks like a current Solidoodle on the shelf at Lowes will be bought by someone who is already accustomed to making things with a variety of tools.

On another note, has Sam been looking into investing in some 'prettier' bodywork.
You know what I mean, just something that flows in the lines a little and looks attractive tyo the average punter.

I'm not so sure that's a great idea.  We've already seen scores of people on this forum who are not particularly technically inclined but purchased a Solidoodle because of its low price and "pre-assembled" nature.  That's all fine, but a lot of these folks seem get their panties in a bunch the first time they get a clog or need to calibrate their machine because they expect an out-of-the-box, maintenance-free experience.  Unfortunately, that's not where the state of the technology is right now, and I doubt it will ever get all the way there for only $500, which is awfully low considering the number of components involved.

IMHO, companies that only release printers in kit form have enjoyed a bit of built-in "filtering" of their potential customers, but now Solidoodle has started to break into a market of ordinary people that the technology cannot easily satisfy.  I love tinkering with my SD, but I don't think most non-technical people would have the patience for it.  Just look a the rants some posters get into because they bought into the marketing hype without doing enough research and got in over their heads.