and yeah, what he said ^^
]]>being a novice in this 3D printing field might get you confused, getting a cheap and quality 3D printer might be a challenge. I'll share the same link that helped me.
Given I see little value in the design (maybe you disagree, that's OK) - assuming everything goes as well as it can for the project, from my perspective the proposition looks like $300 to receive $250 worth of parts (that I could get anywhere else) in 18 months time. I'm not sure I'm on board...
]]>elmoret wrote:Those prices were definitely already discounted, and you aren't accounting for shipping or import tax. Also I don't think Chinese pricing works like you think it does. Have you tried sourcing from China? The power supplies I buy are only 5% cheaper at qty500 compared to qty1. When labor is cheap, you don't get as much of a bulk discount because labor to handle a single product is pennies, so the qty1 price is already very low. The hexagon hotend is $50 (before shipping/import duties), so I've already knocked 20% off the price in the above BOM. This guy's a lawyer, not an engineer or a machinist - so he'll be farming out the majority of the manufacturing. It's gonna be bad. Real bad. Again, look at Rigidbot - charged $45 more, smaller build volume, and they're still struggling to get them out the door (months behind schedule).
QU-BD used MDF in place of extrusions (save $30), a much smaller power supply (save $15), a much cheaper set of electronics (save $30), a cheaper, PEEK-based hotend (save $15), one less stepper (save $7), and smaller bed, shorter belts, fewer pulleys, no printed parts, and shorter/smaller bearings/rods (save $23). Total savings of $120, brings their BOM to around $130. And they're still struggling to stay afloat.
I've been sourcing electronics and motors from China in bulk for 7 years now. I like to think I have a decent handle on pricing.
Also, please show me where you can get that extrusion at $2/ft in single unit quantities. I will buy a pallet load. It's $8/ft here below so I've already discounted it a *LOT* - 75% off retail. I just double checked and he's using closer to 30ft of extrusion, not 20 ft so even if he's getting the stuff for $1.25/ft which is basically the cost of raw 6061, he's still spending $40 on it.
Tim,
From your Grainger link, isn't that about $4.60 / ft?Also, it's even cheaper at Inventables, albeit a 20 x 20mm, not 1"...
https://www.inventables.com/technologie … 20mm-clear
Yup, my mistake. I'll go back and edit. For some reason I thought that was a 4ft section, maybe I looked at the shipping weight.
Either way, I've never seen $2/ft.
]]>Those prices were definitely already discounted, and you aren't accounting for shipping or import tax. Also I don't think Chinese pricing works like you think it does. Have you tried sourcing from China? The power supplies I buy are only 5% cheaper at qty500 compared to qty1. When labor is cheap, you don't get as much of a bulk discount because labor to handle a single product is pennies, so the qty1 price is already very low. The hexagon hotend is $50 (before shipping/import duties), so I've already knocked 20% off the price in the above BOM. This guy's a lawyer, not an engineer or a machinist - so he'll be farming out the majority of the manufacturing. It's gonna be bad. Real bad. Again, look at Rigidbot - charged $45 more, smaller build volume, and they're still struggling to get them out the door (months behind schedule).
QU-BD used MDF in place of extrusions (save $30), a much smaller power supply (save $15), a much cheaper set of electronics (save $30), a cheaper, PEEK-based hotend (save $15), one less stepper (save $7), and smaller bed, shorter belts, fewer pulleys, no printed parts, and shorter/smaller bearings/rods (save $23). Total savings of $120, brings their BOM to around $130. And they're still struggling to stay afloat.
I've been sourcing electronics and motors from China in bulk for 7 years now. I like to think I have a decent handle on pricing.
Also, please show me where you can get that extrusion at $2/ft in single unit quantities. I will buy a pallet load. It's $8/ft here below so I've already discounted it a *LOT* - 75% off retail. I just double checked and he's using closer to 30ft of extrusion, not 20 ft so even if he's getting the stuff for $1.25/ft which is basically the cost of raw 6061, he's still spending $40 on it.
Tim,
From your Grainger link, isn't that about $4.60 / ft?
Also, it's even cheaper at Inventables, albeit a 20 x 20mm, not 1"...
https://www.inventables.com/technologie … 20mm-clear
I also however agree that this is hopeless for KS and generally Elmoret's criticisms are accurate.
]]>QU-BD used MDF in place of extrusions (save $30), a much smaller power supply (save $15), a much cheaper set of electronics (save $30), a cheaper, PEEK-based hotend (save $15), one less stepper (save $7), and smaller bed, shorter belts, fewer pulleys, no printed parts, and shorter/smaller bearings/rods (save $23). Total savings of $120, brings their BOM to around $130. And they're still struggling to stay afloat.
I've been sourcing electronics and motors from China in bulk for 7 years now. I like to think I have a decent handle on pricing.
Also, please show me where you can get that extrusion at $2/ft in single unit quantities. I will buy a pallet load. It's $4/ft here below so I've already discounted it a *LOT* - 50% off retail. I just double checked and he's using closer to 30ft of extrusion, not 20 ft so even if he's getting the stuff for $1.25/ft which is basically the cost of raw 6061, he's still spending $40 on it.
]]>Lets go crazy and call the electronics $60. (remember, this is a RAMPS, MEGA, 4x A4988s AND a LCD)
Electronics: $60
PSU: $25 (its a 30 amp, and power supplies are expensive to ship. I pay about $6/kg for air freight)
Steppers: $35 (5x NEMA17s)
Hotend: $40
Extrusion (20ft@ $2/ft): $40
Bearings, belts, pulleys, fasteners: $50That's $250 right there, and I haven't accounted for either a print farm or injection molds. Remember, he only gets $270 after KS/AP fees. I would say that if the backers get anything, it'll only be after they're subsidized by more expensive kits sold post-KS. That's what happened to Rigidbot and Filabot, just to name a few. Last I hear Filabot was still using money from website sales to fulfill Kickstarter orders, though he may have caught up by now.
Yes. Those prices are what you can buy them at per piece. In volume of 2000 pieces, you can knock that down easily by 30% or more.
QU-BD did the One-up for $200 with pretty much the same equipment and their structure was loaded due to having in-house laser equipment (US labor costs, not overseas) and they delivered.
Although I am concerned about their decision to design an all-metal in-house instead of using the hexagon hotend. The purchased hotend was one of the attractions.
]]>Electronics: $60
PSU: $25 (its a 30 amp, and power supplies are expensive to ship. I pay about $6/kg for air freight)
Steppers: $35 (5x NEMA17s)
Hotend: $40
Extrusion (20ft@ $2/ft): $40
Bearings, belts, pulleys, fasteners: $50
That's $250 right there, and I haven't accounted for either a print farm or injection molds. Remember, he only gets $270 after KS/AP fees. I would say that if the backers get anything, it'll only be after they're subsidized by more expensive kits sold post-KS. That's what happened to Rigidbot and Filabot, just to name a few. Last I hear Filabot was still using money from website sales to fulfill Kickstarter orders, though he may have caught up by now.
]]>Hazer wrote:I almost dropped the money on it this week. Compared to other crowd-funded printers, this is a very low risk investment.
Uh, say what?
He's selling for about 110% of BOM costs, once you take out the 10% for KS/AP. He's basically guaranteed to either be very, very late on deliveries while he sells preorders at a higher price post-KS (see RigidBot, QU-BD) or fail completely.
Or he'll take the money and move to an island in the Caribbean. Honestly I'm surprised more folks don't commit outright fraud on Kickstarter, there's zero accountability.
I agree. But the electronics at volume are less than $75. Getting the parts molded reduces plastic costs greatly (basing off labor, not material). The only expensive thing is the extruded aluminum, which can be alot cheaper in bulk. But I agree that when the dust settles, the KS delivered printers will end up a wash after the effort to deliver. And that is why I think its a low risk. There have been very few KS campaigns that never delivered. This could be the first massive one. But the way I look at it is, most likely what will happen is this guy will buy the parts and quickly assemble. If the reliability of this mass assembly does not come out right, you end up with 75% of your money in decent parts you can use to make a different printer.
But arguing if this KS campaign will end up with people getting ripped off is a different discussion which belongs to any crowd-funded campaign.
]]>I almost dropped the money on it this week. Compared to other crowd-funded printers, this is a very low risk investment.
Uh, say what?
He's selling for about 110% of BOM costs, once you take out the 10% for KS/AP. He's basically guaranteed to either be very, very late on deliveries while he sells preorders at a higher price post-KS (see RigidBot, QU-BD) or fail completely.
Or he'll take the money and move to an island in the Caribbean. Honestly I'm surprised more folks don't commit outright fraud on Kickstarter, there's zero accountability.
]]>The Cobblebot actually looks pretty nice - I may end up picking one up for my brother.
I wonder if he hits the stretch goal, if it will be a separate power source for the heated print bed? I can't imagine another way to do it and stay profitable, but it's *very* intriguing.
Edit: Forgot to say, also makes me think of GLADOS for some reason ;-)
Cobblebot is basically guaranteed to fail at that price. I wish you could pledge against Kickstarters. If the KS can't deliver on time, you get twice your money back. If they do, they get to keep your pledge and you get nothing. Call it the "haters gonna hate" reward tier. That'd be fun.
A separate power source would not be needed, "30A" (i put it in quotes because the power supply is almost certainly an overrated Chinese knockoff waiting to burn your house down) is plenty for printer and bed.
]]>I wonder if he hits the stretch goal, if it will be a separate power source for the heated print bed? I can't imagine another way to do it and stay profitable, but it's *very* intriguing.
Edit: Forgot to say, also makes me think of GLADOS for some reason ;-)
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