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	<title type="html"><![CDATA[SoliForum - 3D Printing Community — Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
	<link rel="self" href="https://www.soliforum.com/feed/atom/topic/6893/" />
	<updated>2014-07-22T01:18:16Z</updated>
	<generator>PunBB</generator>
	<id>https://www.soliforum.com/topic/6893/glass-bed-thickness/</id>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60914/#p60914" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>Tomek wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I do not think people who say thicker is better &quot;because it holds more heat&quot; are really correct. The rate of heat loss from glass to air will be the same irrespective of glass thickness, it&#039;s a material &amp; condition problem. The temperature of the glass at the surface of the transition can be dictated as proportional to the thickness of the glass and the temperature of the aluminum plate, and how fast heat is lost from the glass surface.&nbsp; I&#039;m assuming the aluminum plate is a uniform temperature so this is some sort of 1-D problem.</p></blockquote></div><p>Agreed. I did a quick spreadsheet to work out what the difference in surface temp would be for a 200mm square glass plate, with a bed temp set to 110°C, with glass thicknesses of 2, 3 and 4mm, assuming the chamber is sitting at about 40°C.</p><p>The theory is that there is heat loss from the top surface by convection and radiation (for which I found <a href="http://www.thermal-wizard.com/tmwiz/convect/natural/hup-isot/hup-isot.htm">this handy calculator</a>). Glass has relatively poor thermal bulk thermal conductivity of 0.93 W/mK (see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities">wikipedia</a>). The heat being lost from the top surface has to be conducted through the thickness of the glass, which necessarily requires a temperature difference between the bottom and the top. With this, we can find a surface temperature at which the conduction through the glass balances the loss from the surface, which I think would be a pretty good estimate. This assumes there is no re-radiation, the bed surface is clear and there is perfect contact between the glass and aluminium bed. See the below/attached graph for results, the working spreadsheet is also attached.</p><p><span class="postimg"><img src="http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&amp;item=5798&amp;download=0" alt="http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&amp;amp;item=5798&amp;amp;download=0" /></span></p><p>In short, if you&#039;re using 4mm glass (quite common), then when you set your bed temp to 110°C you should expect the actual temp of your print surface to be closer to 105°C. While not a large difference, it is appreciable, and using thinner glass can save up to 2°C. Certainly specifically choosing a thick insulator as suggested previously in this thread will have a significant impact on the surface temp, which you should be aware of.</p><p>Also interesting is the c. 40W of power lost by convection and radiation, just to keep the temp steady - this is part of what heats up your enclosure.</p><p>This should also highlight why good &amp; even conductivity from the aluminium plate to the glass is important (i.e. air bubbles are a big issue). Which for a warped bed like mine, remains a significant problem.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[grob]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4515/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-22T01:18:16Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60914/#p60914</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60881/#p60881" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I use 2mm glass and I&#039;m happy with it. It was cheap. It does not appear to meaningfully bend, and has enough contact with the slightly bendy aluminum bed that it gets good heat transfer.</p><br /><p>I do not think people who say thicker is better &quot;because it holds more heat&quot; are really correct. The rate of heat loss from glass to air will be the same irrespective of glass thickness, it&#039;s a material &amp; condition problem. The temperature of the glass at the surface of the transition can be dictated as proportional to the thickness of the glass and the temperature of the aluminum plate, and how fast heat is lost from the glass surface.&nbsp; I&#039;m assuming the aluminum plate is a uniform temperature so this is some sort of 1-D problem.</p><p>There is some &quot;heat capacity&quot; to heavier materials and more thickness, but it is not relevant to our application because we&#039;re holding the aluminum plate at a fixed steady-state temperature. There are no moments in which heat capacity would be helpful as a buffer because there are no fluctuations in heat loss from the build plate. The exception to this is the first layer, when my printer head is closer to the surface and the cooling fan might be cooling it quickly. In that case I use a higher initial layer temp to compensate. </p><p>Sorry wanted to chime in without having read everything here, but there are what I believe to be some incorrect parts.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Tomek]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/192/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-21T13:11:42Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60881/#p60881</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60782/#p60782" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ve said it before and I&#039;ll say it again.&nbsp; The clips aren&#039;t needed, in fact they can defeat the very purpose you&#039;ve switched to glass in the first place.&nbsp; If your bed is warped the glass helps with adhesion by providing a flat surface.&nbsp; Glass can bend and the clips will do exactly that.&nbsp; &nbsp;Spray the underside of the glass with some hairspray and run it through 3 heat cool cycles and it won&#039;t move until you want it to.&nbsp; No clips to hit your nozzle <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" /></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[wardjr]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/2291/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-20T05:46:36Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60782/#p60782</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60758/#p60758" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Perfect upgrade. Only problem is the position of the clips that hold the glass to the bed. The purple glue stick has never failed me one bit either.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[exineport]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3203/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-19T23:23:40Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60758/#p60758</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60164/#p60164" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>i use glass so i can take one piece out and let it cool and put a new piece in and let it warm up for my next print.<br />i cant get just plain kapton to keep my parts stuck.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Damon550]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1861/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-11T07:55:50Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60164/#p60164</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60160/#p60160" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Borosilicate glass would be the best for temperture fluctuations and capacity. We make standard plate silicate glass (tempered and coated) for industrial use - So I think my plates will do just fine. That sub-2mm glass (dollar store frames) mainly comes from china from what my industry tells me.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[exineport]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3203/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-11T06:57:12Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60160/#p60160</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60148/#p60148" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>adrian wrote:</cite><blockquote><div class="quotebox"><cite>AZERATE wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I&#039;m fairly certain glass doesn&#039;t rip <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/big_smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="big_smile" /></p></blockquote></div><p>Apparently it does for some. I&#039;m assuming most aren&#039;t using tempered glass who manage it... probably framing glass, mirrors or basic window glass</p></blockquote></div><p>I have a plate of borosilicate glass, which I managed to remove a chunk from when a part got particularly well stuck (I was using ABS glue). Either kind of glass is mechanically fairly brittle, the quality does vary a fair bit for both of course. Just with the boro glass you won&#039;t see cracking due to thermal stress (e.g. when heating / cooling the plate quickly, this is why it&#039;s used in cookware).</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[grob]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4515/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-11T01:35:16Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60148/#p60148</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60140/#p60140" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I use a mirror more than straight glass (as if my signature doesn&#039;t give it away <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" /> ) and never had any real problems except with large and high infill prints. Then again, I went to a bona fide glass shop over the dollar store idea.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[AZERATE]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4188/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-11T00:34:18Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60140/#p60140</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60139/#p60139" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>adrian wrote:</cite><blockquote><div class="quotebox"><cite>AZERATE wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I&#039;m fairly certain glass doesn&#039;t rip <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/big_smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="big_smile" /></p></blockquote></div><p>Apparently it does for some. I&#039;m assuming most aren&#039;t using tempered glass who manage it... probably framing glass, mirrors or basic window glass</p></blockquote></div><p>All I&#039;m using is cheap framing glass.&nbsp; &nbsp;Never had it rip or tear <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/wink.png" width="15" height="15" alt="wink" /> not even a chip.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[wardjr]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/2291/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-11T00:32:30Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60139/#p60139</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60137/#p60137" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>AZERATE wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I&#039;m fairly certain glass doesn&#039;t rip <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/big_smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="big_smile" /></p></blockquote></div><p>Apparently it does for some. I&#039;m assuming most aren&#039;t using tempered glass who manage it... probably framing glass, mirrors or basic window glass</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[adrian]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/663/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-11T00:18:48Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60137/#p60137</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60134/#p60134" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>wardjr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The only advantage to the glass is it&#039;s perfectly flat surface.&nbsp; Otherwise very similar to kapton as far as adhesion goes.</p></blockquote></div><p>I&#039;m fairly certain glass doesn&#039;t rip <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/big_smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="big_smile" /></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[AZERATE]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4188/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-11T00:11:26Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60134/#p60134</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60130/#p60130" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>wardjr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Unless you have a warped bed, which most of them seem to be.</p></blockquote></div><p>One day I&#039;ll get a piece of 10mm alu plate, mill the faces flat and use that as a bed. Can&#039;t stand this warping business, so inefficient!</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[grob]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4515/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-10T23:31:42Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60130/#p60130</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60074/#p60074" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I often wonder what people are using to remove their prints (Jack hammers).&nbsp; I am still using my original piece of glass from over a year ago and have had no problems.&nbsp; The only advantage to the glass is it&#039;s perfectly flat surface.&nbsp; Otherwise very similar to kapton as far as adhesion goes.&nbsp; Unless you have a warped bed, which most of them seem to be.&nbsp; Just using kapton on the platform makes more sense.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[wardjr]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/2291/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-10T16:31:00Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60074/#p60074</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60052/#p60052" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#039;t that just really put you back full circle to the kapton tape on the original bed?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[adrian]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/663/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-10T07:52:28Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60052/#p60052</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Glass Bed Thickness]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/60051/#p60051" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>i managed to have pieces of the glass get pulled out of the sheet so now i put kapton tape over my glass.<br />by doing this i think the connection between print and glass is not so rigid and the prints hang on better. still use hair spray though</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Damon550]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1861/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2014-07-10T07:50:55Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/60051/#p60051</id>
		</entry>
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