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	<title type="html"><![CDATA[SoliForum - 3D Printing Community — Printer Recommendation]]></title>
	<link rel="self" href="https://www.soliforum.com/feed/atom/topic/3800/" />
	<updated>2013-09-06T01:19:47Z</updated>
	<generator>PunBB</generator>
	<id>https://www.soliforum.com/topic/3800/printer-recommendation/</id>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35321/#p35321" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>3D-Bob wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Elmoret, I&#039;m of the mindset to see a thing work as the designer intended and then start tweaking from there.&nbsp; Most especially in this realm due to my lack of experience.&nbsp; The way folks talk about this printer it&#039;s almost like it doesn&#039;t work the way the designers intended, and then I read Ian&#039;s reply.</p><p>Ian, after each of your points, I kept thinking &quot;If it&#039;s so easy and only costs $12, why in the world don&#039;t they do it that way from the factory?&quot;.&nbsp; Sounds simple while reading your post, but I wonder where I will source the parts?&nbsp; What even are the part numbers? I realized that answering those questions would be an undertaking for some with my &lt;lack of&gt; experience.</p><p>Shan, you make some excellent points.&nbsp; I have no idea how much value 3D printing will bring to my household.&nbsp; It could range anywhere from &quot;get that smelly, noisy thing away from me, daddy&quot; to opening a whole new world of possibility and education for the kids (and myself of course).&nbsp; It does seem quite sensible to go with a cheaper model the first time around, despite the shortcomings.&nbsp; My fear is that with the SD3 I would NEED to go through all the steps that Ian outlines, or those of Homedistiller who basically replaced every part.&nbsp; I am heartened to hear of good success from at least one SD3 user.</p></blockquote></div><p>Others pointed out something I forgot to mention before; people are far more likely to complain about issues, than sing praise to something working properly.&nbsp; The squeaky wheel gets the white lithium as it were.</p><p>As to why Solidoodle don&#039;t just incorporate all the &quot;upgrades&quot; available here in the forum (and elsewhere); well that&#039;s a complicated one.&nbsp; While I don&#039;t speak for solidoodle, nor have &quot;inside&quot; information, I have worked in a production environment before; and speaking from experience, even the SMALLEST changes are undertaken with the greatest of care.&nbsp; Any reasonably run business will consider things like part cost (more or less than existing), changes to assembly time (easier or harder to assemble), part lifespan (vs existing), product usability (does it improve the end user experience enough to justify it), part availability (eg can we get it in bulk reliably) and dozens of other things.&nbsp; Oh; and then you have to account for the time and money spent actually EXAMINING these reference points; which in a mid to large size business likely means its a certified engineer or some sort who already has 10,000 other tasks on his honey-dew list....</p><p>To put it another way, many years ago I worked sheet-metal R&amp;D for an &quot;industrial kitchen-ware production company.&quot;&nbsp; When I say &quot;R&amp;D&quot; I mean specifically that I worked hand-in-hand with an engineer who would design something, and I would build a one-off prototype using various CNC and manual methods.&nbsp; The last major project I worked on before changing career paths was a quesodilla slicer for a nation-wide &quot;mexican&quot; fast food chain.&nbsp; Amongst other things, the slicer had to meet international food-safety requirements, fit in a space less than 2 inches high underneath the cooker, &quot;cut&quot; the product while it was already in the serving bag without cutting the bag; and otherwise be useful.&nbsp; In the last 18 months I worked for that company we went through 87 different revisions and who knows how many more after I left, and guess what?&nbsp; The restaurant ultimately went with a handheld slicer they already had in their inventory system.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[shan.destromp]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3225/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-06T01:19:47Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35321/#p35321</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35316/#p35316" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Also keep in mind that people generally come here for help or to collaborate on improvements.&nbsp; It&#039;s the nature of the forum for there to be many more, &quot;Help my printer is broken!&quot; posts than there are, &quot;My printer works perfectly and I have no problems.&quot;&nbsp; </p><p>My printer works great.&nbsp; I love it and would recommend it as a purchase with a couple of caveats regarding the company and communication.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[justsomeguy]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/302/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T23:56:21Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35316/#p35316</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35308/#p35308" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>The Solidoodle&#039;s price point is the only reason I have a 3D printer.&nbsp; I didn&#039;t feel I could justify it over $1k, and could think of some things I would use it for, but not a lot.&nbsp; Once you have one, it becomes easier to think of things, to the point of coming up with complicated solutions to simple problems just so you can involve the printer.</p><p>Much of the printer not working as designed has more to do with the state of the technology at this level.&nbsp; Non-sticking, warping, cracking of ABS is a problem for any printer, and is the reason Makerbot called ABS printing Experimental.&nbsp; It is solved by using an actively heated enclosure, but that is protected by patent so it is something you have to add yourself.&nbsp; The other problem is nozzles getting clogged, or jammed which is another common 3D printing problem.&nbsp; All-metal hot ends might be the solution there, and Solidoodle would be smart to devote a lot of R&amp;D to developing their own reliable hot end design.&nbsp; The one they have been using is common, but not very state of the art anymore.&nbsp; </p><p>Their biggest problem is banding from Z wobble which is part design, part inconsistent assembly quality.&nbsp; The fix for that is cheap and simple, and shouldn&#039;t add much to the cost of material.&nbsp; Every change they make must be weighed against cost, and maintaining that low price point.&nbsp; A flexible Z rod and floating nut is a common way to minimize Z wobble currently, but Solidoodle is very conservative about making changes to the design because with their volume of sales any wrong move could become a support nightmare.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[IanJohnson]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/14/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T22:03:08Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35308/#p35308</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35303/#p35303" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>3D-Bob wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ian, after each of your points, I kept thinking &quot;If it&#039;s so easy and only costs $12, why in the world don&#039;t they do it that way from the factory?&quot;.&nbsp; Sounds simple while reading your post, but I wonder where I will source the parts?&nbsp; What even are the part numbers? I realized that answering those questions would be an undertaking for some with my &lt;lack of&gt; experience.</p></blockquote></div><p>Support should be another consideration.&nbsp; I&#039;ve heard bad things about Solidoodle support, but personally I have relied solely (and heavily at times) on this forum and have never contacted Solidoodle support.&nbsp; With this community, I&#039;d be surprised if you ever found yourself in a situation where you couldn&#039;t locate a source for parts.</p><p>Despite the problems that I&#039;ve encountered, I still feel the SD3 is a good value.&nbsp; But there&#039;s definitely a time commitment in addition to a monetary one.&nbsp; I can&#039;t compare reliability, ease of use, or print quality with any competitor products as I&#039;ve only owned an SD3. I can tell you that a good chunk of my time investment was due to the never ending quest for improved quality.&nbsp; This isn&#039;t to say the out of the box quality was bad, it&#039;s just when you see what others have achieved, it&#039;s easy to chase the same.</p><p>There&#039;s a software learning side too; not only 3d design, but slicing as well (with an astounding number of setting permutations), filament materials/manufacturers, etc.</p><p>Hardware problems often arise from a lack of knowledge; how to prevent clogs, get prints to stick, etc.&nbsp; </p><p>Perhaps a closed system like Cube may be closer to plug and play, but personally I prefer an open system that allows a maker to take it as far as they want.</p><p>I put off getting a 3d printer for a several months because I wasn&#039;t sure what I would use it for.&nbsp; Then I realized, I was missing the point (for me anyways).&nbsp; It wasn&#039;t WHAT I could print, but THAT I could print [objects].&nbsp; And I could justify the expense because of the world it would open up for the kids; much like my first computer in the 80s.</p><p>With this mindset my expectations of current-technology were low, and at the SD3 price point, a good relative value.</p><p>I have no doubt in my mind that the kids and I will be laughing in the future about how slow our first 3d printer was and how poor the quality; but for today, it&#039;s all pretty awesome.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[3d-oodler]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/815/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T21:01:26Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35303/#p35303</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35301/#p35301" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Elmoret, I&#039;m of the mindset to see a thing work as the designer intended and then start tweaking from there.&nbsp; Most especially in this realm due to my lack of experience.&nbsp; The way folks talk about this printer it&#039;s almost like it doesn&#039;t work the way the designers intended, and then I read Ian&#039;s reply.</p><p>Ian, after each of your points, I kept thinking &quot;If it&#039;s so easy and only costs $12, why in the world don&#039;t they do it that way from the factory?&quot;.&nbsp; Sounds simple while reading your post, but I wonder where I will source the parts?&nbsp; What even are the part numbers? I realized that answering those questions would be an undertaking for some with my &lt;lack of&gt; experience.</p><p>Shan, you make some excellent points.&nbsp; I have no idea how much value 3D printing will bring to my household.&nbsp; It could range anywhere from &quot;get that smelly, noisy thing away from me, daddy&quot; to opening a whole new world of possibility and education for the kids (and myself of course).&nbsp; It does seem quite sensible to go with a cheaper model the first time around, despite the shortcomings.&nbsp; My fear is that with the SD3 I would NEED to go through all the steps that Ian outlines, or those of Homedistiller who basically replaced every part.&nbsp; I am heartened to hear of good success from at least one SD3 user.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[3D-Bob]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3273/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T20:25:17Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35301/#p35301</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35294/#p35294" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>3D-Bob wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Help me find the virtues of this printer, because I&#039;m not seeing them.</p></blockquote></div><p>Let me ask you this; since you&#039;re in a position I was at a few weeks ago.&nbsp; Are you comfortable with the prospect of spending $2000+ on something that might end up sitting in a closet gathering dust in a week or two once the novelty has worn off?&nbsp; Are you going to have to put money aside for more than a month or two until you can pay for it (or, have you already been saving money for a month or two)?</p><p>If the first answer is no, and / or the second one is yes; I would heavily suggest picking a unit that was &lt;$1k.&nbsp; Not saying that the Solidoodle is the best at it&#039;s price point; as it does have flaws but there aren&#039;t many kits I could find that give you an 8x8x8 build platform for $800, let alone fully assembled units.&nbsp; Of course I was a little picky; I was only willing to order from a source here in the states.</p><p>At the moment I&#039;m printing exclusively in ABS; because I want to be able to smooth my parts chemically (acetone vapor bath); something that you can&#039;t do (cheaply or safely from my understanding) with PLA.&nbsp; The only &quot;mod&quot; I&#039;ve done to my SD3 in order to get good ABS prints has been a thick glass mirror I already had directly on top of the heat bed (didn&#039;t even remove the kapton tape); and adjusting my Z-stop.&nbsp; Put a little acetone / abs slurry on the mirror and you have a perfectly sticking heat bed every time.&nbsp; Even with my glass plate; my heat-bed reaches full temp in &lt;10 minutes from room temp; and has the added benefit of providing a more stable, even heat surface.</p><p>Is the Solidoodle something I would endorse for a professional environment doing low-level R&amp;D prototyping?&nbsp; Probably not.&nbsp; For someone to tinker with as a form of entertainment (either the act of using it, or using what you&#039;ve printed)?&nbsp; Sure.</p><p>Another couple of things to consider; depending on the age of your kids; is that a kit could actually be a fun project in and of itself; and you get the added benefit of learning the machine more intimately than you could with a pre-assembled unit; as well as teaching your kids about basic electronics and such.</p><p>Alternately, if your end goal is simply a source of cheap parts and bits for your R/C toys; and not using the machine itself; is look at online shops that do the printing for you.&nbsp; Send them the file and a couple bucks, and in a few days you have your part, without any of the effort.</p><p>Edit:&nbsp; I forgot to mention; no matter what machine you go with; even if it were to be a $50,000 industrial behemoth; you are GOING to have to tweak it and calibrate it before you get anything good out of it; and the better you calibrate it, the better your end result.&nbsp; Even though &quot;printer&quot; is in the name, they are really nothing like the Canon (or whatever) you have sitting on your desk.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[shan.destromp]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3225/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T19:30:55Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35294/#p35294</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35292/#p35292" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>If you are printing ABS your best results will be with a printer that can be easily enclosed.&nbsp; That mostly limits you to the box style printers, with an XY gantry and a bed that moves in Z, rather than a bed that slides in Y.&nbsp; Most, if not all of those printers are well over $1000, including Ultimaker, Makerbot, Leapfrog, etc.</p><p>The Solidoodle has some engineering shortcomings, but it is easily modded.&nbsp; You can change the carriages to use linear bearings for something like $12, eliminate Z wobble with a 3mm threaded rod and a coupler, clip glass or ceramic tile to the bed to improve adhesion.&nbsp; A few sheets of plexiglass makes an enclosure, but you can use cardboard in a pinch.&nbsp; &nbsp;Upgrading the stepper driver to 1/32 microstepping improves the surface quality which used to be a $12 upgrade, but the currently shipping controller boards do not have replaceable chips.&nbsp; There are options for new boards for well under $100 however.&nbsp; </p><p>You can buy a S3 and mod or upgrade it to match the quality of an Ultimaker and still be cheaper.&nbsp; You can upgrade the controller board, add an LCD with SD card, and add a second extruder and still come nowhere near the cost of a Replicator 2X.&nbsp; &nbsp;At $800 the S3 is hit and miss as a fully assembled plug and play newbie-friendly solution (such a thing doesn&#039;t really exist).&nbsp; &nbsp;It is a good platform to get you into 3D printing for relatively little money without building a kit, and has a lot of DIY potential.&nbsp; If you aren&#039;t willing to tinker and learn about how the machine works, hobby-level 3D printing isn&#039;t ready for you yet.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[IanJohnson]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/14/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T18:26:25Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35292/#p35292</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35288/#p35288" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>3D-Bob wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Help me find the virtues of this printer, because I&#039;m not seeing them.</p></blockquote></div><p>Price.</p><p>Some people would rather spend $800 and a few hours tweaking the machine, others would rather spend $2200 and hope to not tweak it, but eventually have to.</p><p>I have a SD2 and SD3, I&#039;ve put 500+ hours on them. The only print failures I get anymore are from running out of filament mid-print. Took some tweaking to get that far (enclosure, glass bed, z-banding fix)</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[elmoret]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/221/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T17:57:05Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35288/#p35288</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35286/#p35286" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I found quite a few opinions of the SD3, and I have to say not one has been positive.&nbsp; They seem to range from mild frustration to down right hate.&nbsp; In particular there&#039;s a Google group post that seems to spew hate on the SD3 from several people.&nbsp; Engadget&#039;s review, though overall neutral, talked about the problems the Solidoodle employees had in getting a demo unit to work.&nbsp; Homedistiller has a video that goes in to great detail about how the engineering is &quot;poo&quot; giving specific examples of the problems, and what was needed to fix them all.</p><p>I assume the three of you guys are using an SD3, and prefer it.&nbsp; Help me find the virtues of this printer, because I&#039;m not seeing them.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[3D-Bob]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3273/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T17:25:13Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35286/#p35286</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35268/#p35268" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the replies.&nbsp; They are much appreciated.</p><p>I thought about the Makerbot because of the mindshare they have, but it looked like I needed to go to the Replicator 2X to get ABS printing, and cost and availability took that off the list (same for the CubeX).&nbsp; </p><p>I&#039;ll go read up on the SD3.&nbsp; While I don&#039;t need dual nozzles today, it would be a nice future upgrade so that I can &#039;paint&#039; designs on objects with different color plastic.&nbsp; I&#039;m trying to keep my choices to preassembled, but tinker friendly designs.&nbsp; I like to know that upgrades are possible/encouraged.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[3D-Bob]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3273/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T14:46:51Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35268/#p35268</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35239/#p35239" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>As gomisan said unless you got the money to shell out for a shiny new ultimaker or makerbot (or even if you did) check out the SD3.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[DigitalWhitewater]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/402/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T07:19:40Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35239/#p35239</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35231/#p35231" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Unless you have the money to spend on the Makerbot I&#039;d suggest seriously looking at the SD3. I spent a lot of time looking at different printers and for the price the Solidoodles have it hands down.</p><p>If I didn&#039;t want dual extruders the next choice would probably be a delta style printer for the extended vertical build space.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Gomisan]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/2861/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T06:02:24Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35231/#p35231</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35229/#p35229" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Ultimaker is probably the best( I don&#039;t have one <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/sad.png" width="15" height="15" alt="sad" /> )&nbsp; The SD is built a little better than the TypeA but with cheaper components overall you get the same quality prints... more or less... and the M2 is just a bit better than them also but in the end all of them will get near the same quality with proper calibration and I have no experience with the Taz... so don&#039;t know how it compares.</p><p>As for printing aircraft parts it work great... however using it for airfoil surfaces and the like wellllll like you said the shrinking come into play big time unfortunately, on the other hand there are some great new filament coming out that are strong, low shrinkage, and just cool to print with <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" /></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[ronsii]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/296/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-05T05:49:24Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35229/#p35229</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Printer Recommendation]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/35197/#p35197" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m a total noob getting ready to buy my first 3D printer, and would really appreciate some advice.</p><p>I&#039;m looking forward to printing and tweaking airplanes, helis, etc with my 4 kids. It seems like the durability of ABS is the way to go, but very large, thin, and flat things like wings appear especially difficult to print without warping. I&#039;m a PC tech by training, so a little tinkering doesn&#039;t scare me, but saving time is important - pre-assembled is a plus.</p><p>So far the Lulzbot Taz is my front runner, but I wonder how it compares to other printers? Others on my list are the Ultimaker, Type A Series 1, or Makergear M2.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[3D-Bob]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3273/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-09-04T23:42:12Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/35197/#p35197</id>
		</entry>
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