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	<title type="html"><![CDATA[SoliForum - 3D Printing Community — Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
	<link rel="self" href="https://www.soliforum.com/feed/atom/topic/2230/" />
	<updated>2013-07-15T04:57:55Z</updated>
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	<id>https://www.soliforum.com/topic/2230/thermal-images-of-various-bed-setups/</id>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29888/#p29888" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to see PCB/Silicone heater + 1-2mm aluminum sheet then glass on top. I wonder how much the aluminum would even out the heat.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Seshan]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1436/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-15T04:57:55Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29888/#p29888</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29850/#p29850" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>We need a way to identify &quot;related threads&quot; because that would be awesome.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[2n2r5]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1906/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-14T16:01:39Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29850/#p29850</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29830/#p29830" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>2n2r5 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good point :-) I figured you had tuned. It was more for others that didn&#039;t know about it.&nbsp; </p><p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_style_browse-bin_0?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A1063278%2Cn%3A3735061%2Cn%3A3295676011%2Cn%3A3735171%2Ck%3A8%22+tile+ceramic%2Cp_n_style_browse-bin%3A262966011&amp;keywords=8%22+tile+ceramic&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1373780164&amp;rnid=256652011">Amazon Decorative Tiles</a></p><p>I am thinking of getting a decorative 8&quot; tile because that would look badass. 3D Printing on a Mona Lisa.</p></blockquote></div><p>Yuppers - I posted a post many months back over at <a href="http://www.soliforum.com/topic/1720/massively-improved-bed-temp-stability-if-you-enable-pid/">http://www.soliforum.com/topic/1720/mas … nable-pid/</a> on the subject <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" /> </p><p>Re the decorative tiles - why not <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/wink.png" width="15" height="15" alt="wink" /> But just remember, you don&#039;t want toooo much glaze on there... so avant-garde picasso-esque cubism efforts are probably not the best choices <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/wink.png" width="15" height="15" alt="wink" /> But the ink-jet printed ones you linked to should be fine .. and that lobster tile will go really well next to my Big Billy Bass <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/big_smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="big_smile" /></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[adrian]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/663/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-14T05:59:25Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29830/#p29830</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29828/#p29828" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Good point :-) I figured you had tuned. It was more for others that didn&#039;t know about it.&nbsp; </p><p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_p_n_style_browse-bin_0?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A1063278%2Cn%3A3735061%2Cn%3A3295676011%2Cn%3A3735171%2Ck%3A8%22+tile+ceramic%2Cp_n_style_browse-bin%3A262966011&amp;keywords=8%22+tile+ceramic&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1373780164&amp;rnid=256652011">Amazon Decorative Tiles</a></p><p>I am thinking of getting a decorative 8&quot; tile because that would look badass. 3D Printing on a Mona Lisa.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[2n2r5]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1906/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-14T05:40:23Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29828/#p29828</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29825/#p29825" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Still only helps one section of the glass, right at the thermistor not the whole bed as you can see in the thermal images... I had bed pid tuned each of them. It doesn&#039;t change the basic properties of glass vs ceramics as you can see in the thermal images which take the whole bed into account, not just a spot reading at the thermistor</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[adrian]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/663/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-14T05:04:01Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29825/#p29825</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29823/#p29823" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>adrian wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So whilst it takes a tad longer to heat up than glass - it does so with far more uniformity and <strong>will also not fluctuate during a print as much as glass does (for example, when the bed is at the bottom of its PID cycle, glass will observe say a degree change in temp, where as tile will stay at the setpoint whilst PID bounces around.</strong>.. I found this has a HUGE impact on curling/warping/lifting... I just dont get that happening on ceramic tile, where as I do on Glass/Aluminium (Alu being the opposite end of the scale and *too* good of a conductor..... it retains no thermal mass and needs constant application of a heat source to maintain temperature - but heck it&#039;ll get there fast <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/wink.png" width="15" height="15" alt="wink" /> )</p><p>All I can say is, play with it for a bit, experiment over a few days, and I&#039;m pretty sure you&#039;ll be impressed with a tile over glass....</p></blockquote></div><p>For others that don&#039;t know - </p><p>It&#039;s worth noting that doing a PID autotune for the bed using &quot;M303 E-1 C8 S90&quot; will make you temps stay within .1 C of your set value. (even without glass or tile) This can only be changed in the firmware so for the new boards this is temporarily an unknown.</p><p>#define PIDTEMPBED needs to be uncommented and you need to replace the SD bed PID settings with your autotune results.</p><p>Check out how flat my temps are after adjusting PID settings. </p><p><span class="postimg"><img src="http://2n2r5.com/pictures/printer/show-n-tell/PID_autotune_results.jpg" alt="http://2n2r5.com/pictures/printer/show-n-tell/PID_autotune_results.jpg" /></span></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[2n2r5]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1906/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-14T04:52:33Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29823/#p29823</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29720/#p29720" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>FatalDischarge wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is about 20 min for it to heat up with glass. Would putting some aluminum foil between the aluminum and ceramic help with heat transfer, or no? Also, do I still need hairspray? Is it really worth the switch from glass to ceramic?</p></blockquote></div><p>I use a dusting of hairspray.</p><p>The main advantage of ceramic over &#039;ordinary&#039; glass is - glass has almost no thermal mass and is not uniform in its distribution as a result (it will have high intensity spots with sharp drop off across the plate) and its thermal conduction is measured in the 0.8-1.0 realms .... Borosilicate glass has a slightly higher transmission value (making it a better conductor than &#039;ordinary&#039; glass), due to its annealed surface (1.05-&gt;1.2). This also improves its heat uniformity, but its still a &#039;lightweight&#039; in thermal mass stakes. What this means is a change in the heatbed is rapidly reflected to the glass and its upper surface - turn the heatbed off and the glass will cool in a matter of minutes..</p><p>Ceramic Tiles on the other hand, depending on the specific composition, can have 4,5,10,20 times the heat conduction capabilities of glass, whilst also having much larger thermal mass - it takes longer to observe a change as a result of changes to the heat intensity, but as a result, it is far more uniform and gradual in its temperature changes... switching off the heat bed and leaving the tile for 10 minutes can see it still with a temp of 60°C....</p><p>Granite Tile is anywhere from 1.7-&gt;4 as a thermal conductor... so again, 1.5 to 4 times &#039;better&#039; than glass.... only problem with granite is they tend to be large tiles... </p><p>So whilst it takes a tad longer to heat up than glass - it does so with far more uniformity and will also not fluctuate during a print as much as glass does (for example, when the bed is at the bottom of its PID cycle, glass will observe say a degree change in temp, where as tile will stay at the setpoint whilst PID bounces around... I found this has a HUGE impact on curling/warping/lifting... I just dont get that happening on ceramic tile, where as I do on Glass/Aluminium (Alu being the opposite end of the scale and *too* good of a conductor..... it retains no thermal mass and needs constant application of a heat source to maintain temperature - but heck it&#039;ll get there fast <img src="https://www.soliforum.com/img/smilies/wink.png" width="15" height="15" alt="wink" /> )</p><p>All I can say is, play with it for a bit, experiment over a few days, and I&#039;m pretty sure you&#039;ll be impressed with a tile over glass....</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[adrian]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/663/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-13T10:30:40Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29720/#p29720</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29719/#p29719" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>It is about 20 min for it to heat up with glass. Would putting some aluminum foil between the aluminum and ceramic help with heat transfer, or no? Also, do I still need hairspray? Is it really worth the switch from glass to ceramic?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[FatalDischarge]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/587/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-13T10:10:45Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29719/#p29719</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29718/#p29718" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>will work - just give it extra time to allow the tile to heat-stablise... so from memory thats about say 20mins for the bed + say 5-10 for the tile to stabilise for best results/performance</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[adrian]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/663/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-13T08:38:17Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29718/#p29718</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/29717/#p29717" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I got a couple of standard white glazed 6 x 6 tiles from Lowes for a buck. Will these work on a stock bed with older style heater (older meaning that I received mine in December)? Should I put something between the aluminum and tile? Is this a dumb idea and should I even bother?<br />Whatever the case may be, I&#039;ll try it. <br />Any thoughts?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[FatalDischarge]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/587/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-07-13T08:31:28Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/29717/#p29717</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/23766/#p23766" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Where did you get the ceramic tile or let&#039;s say what &quot;kind&quot; of tile did you use?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[digiprint]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/364/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-05-23T10:19:22Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/23766/#p23766</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/23703/#p23703" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ve ordered a e3d this evening... And will order a heated bed tomorrow! At this rate i may as well try and build a whole new printer. Lol</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Staffordknot]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1769/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-05-22T22:30:58Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/23703/#p23703</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/23672/#p23672" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Omg. Great post Adrian. Thank you.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Briggs]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1282/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-05-22T18:25:33Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/23672/#p23672</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/23661/#p23661" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>My E3D only shipped on Monday, so will take about 10 days to get to me here in Oz. </p><p>The tile, yes, is just a glazed wall tile. I picked up the first flat (check the glaze at an angle with light shining on it to make sure it doesn&#039;t have pour-deformities in the glaze or air bubbles) white wall tile that is actually 195x195x6.</p><p>And the larger nozzle is not a problem specifically - it means slightly less resolution at smaller layer heights, but it means you can print much faster with higher flow-rates on the extruder.. so it has its wins and its (potential) losses. I can&#039;t see it being different to the J-Head 0.5 I have for use with Laywoo-D3 Wood Filament (which clogs on &lt;0.5mm nozzles) .</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[adrian]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/663/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-05-22T17:38:32Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/23661/#p23661</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Thermal Images of Various Bed Setups]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/23656/#p23656" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Adrian, do you see the larger nozzle dimension a problem on the e3d? Cheers</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Staffordknot]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1769/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2013-05-22T17:17:16Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/23656/#p23656</id>
		</entry>
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