SoliForum - 3D Printing Community — pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-11-25T17:09:13Z

Hello there
I have not published in a long time because things in my country have not gone in the best way, I am from Chile and here we have a lot of problems with the government.
As for the filament, everything went quite well, I think, although the generated filament is not of the right quality, it is printable what I think is a breakthrough.
The filament problem is mainly its tolerance, that and I have been unable to reach the standard 1.75mm for filament.
I think that these tolerance problems are mainly due to the inability I have had to communicate to the filastruder the flow of PET and so this variety does not have an extrusion speed.
it was impossible to use the filawinder because there is no place for photosensors.
Filawinder also began to present important failures, mainly a reduction in its winding force, so it is no longer used.
to print use a creality ender 3 with the nozzle at 260ºC and the hot bed at 100ºC, Initially, the prints show significant imperfections, these were reduced when I increased the flow of the printer to 119 and reduced the size of the filament in the printer to 1.5mm (the minimum allowed by the printer)
as always attached photos of the results and any feedback will be well appreciated
Cheers!

Filastruder, running with 90 ° C cooling tub to reach the glass transition temprerature

First impression with the PET generated, with many defects and spaces between the layers

Second impression, it is important to understand that for each successful impression there are usually two that fail, because there are too thin filament segments for the printer to receive, below 1mm according to my experience the printer is not able to print

third impression, the flow was increased to 110 and it came out much better, it is still not perfect but it is quite close

fourth impression, much better, even with defects, due to the poor tolerance of the filament, this was done with a flow of 118 and the size of the filament in the printer was reduced to 1.5mm

last impression, very brittle due to the spaces between the layers

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-08-16T15:10:32Z

I know coolio986 mentioned not runnning water circulation, but since you've started heating the water perhaps you could get away with that now? If so maybe a setup where the Filastruder is horizontal, then you have something coming out of the water bath with cut out U shapes and water is pumped up to it to replace what falls down through the cutout. Filament comes in one side, goes through the U shape cutout, goes through the water, then back out of the other side's U shape cutout, then goes through a Filawinder laser setup before going to the Filawinder. If set up in the right positions would that allow for the filament to move up and down enough to turn the spooler on/off possibly?

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-08-15T01:28:13Z

Well done! Very cool to see your progress, thanks for the details and photos.

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-08-14T22:39:12Z

Great work!!

You are exactly right about the color change to white and crystals.

Heating the water to keep the filament malleable is exactly what you need.

I do the same thing.

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-08-14T22:13:47Z

Hello everyone
Thank you very much mazhive for sharing your work, eventually I have to get to a more stable format to use the filastruder, my fan also attracts my attention, is it quite large, does it heat the air it uses to cool the filament? It is an excellent idea if you ask me, I would like to know if it served you
On the other hand I have been trying to reach a diameter more or less similar to 1.75mm, now I am at 1.54mm what I think is a great breakthrough, I definitely gave up on the photosensors of the filawinder, it did not occur to me how could they be willing to fulfill their mission,
So what I did was to place the filastruder of a rice cooker very close (I don't know if a rice cooker meant anything to you, this text is being translated by google translator so I hope it is understood, anyway I will attach images) and drop the filament in very hot water, when you pass 60ºC (between 67 and 140ºC according to a paper I read about PET, Well it was a review actually) PET enters a state of glass transition where it becomes very malleable and manipulable for what it was perfect for the filament to fall and turn naturally just like the 0.8mm PET that I climbed the other day, to roll it up is as simple as leaving the PET immersed in hot water so that it enters the glass transition state and introduces it into the Filawinder tube, this will give the shape and being malleable PET, no matter what curves it has given this funky (it is important that the angle of the PET when it falls is not very closed since that section is ra thinner and more fragile than the rest, that is the purpose of letting it fall in water at a temperature above the glass transition temperature of PET)
Now if PET is left at this temperature for a long time, it will begin to acquire a whitish shade, I assume that they are small PET crystals that grow inside the filament to such a size that they are able to collide with the photons what gives that tone, but not big enough to completely crystallize and become brittle
It is also important that the newly melted PET does not float and touch another little PET that is going down, this section will merge and ruin our filament
Well, I think I'm really close to getting it, unfortunately the thermocouple reading becomes very erratic, I must isolate it with Kapton tape to avoid that error
That's all, less and less to get the long-awaited impression with 100% PET bottles
As always attached images of the experiences

The PET towers that I made, these allowed me to elucidate in what diameter the PET becomes semicrystalline and then crystalline, I could notice that at 0.8mm you will have amorphous filament without the need of any cooling mechanism, at 0.9mm it becomes semicrystalline and 1mm onwards becomes very crystalline

The first experience of PET falling to the rice cooker, the PET did not crystallize but it got enriched because the water boiled in that inntestant and produced a lot of turbulence

PET being rolled at high temperature, PET did not exert very little resistance to being rolled, its texture was like that of a cooked noodle, and the filastruder was like a man sipping the noodle, hahaha

Another image of the PET being rolled, it is important that the filastruder tube was submerged since at the time of the PET let the hot water harden immediately, the tube under the water gives it the straight shape that we want

Here another image of the PET winding, this one did much better than the previous one because it no longer floated due to the surface tension of the water, this I achieved by adding detergent to the water

a lot of 1,54mm PET filament, it must be a record, however something white turns around, it happens if I left it a long time under water, I must devise a way to remove the PET so that it does not happen
Well, I thank you all for your invaluable help, also to Tim Elmore, who also gave me some tips internally, we will see if it can be printed and if I achieve it, well I feel that it would not be just an achievement of mine but of all of us, as he said sir isaac newton, If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-08-11T00:13:48Z

nice to see a pet filament coming out and running on a pile
To show you what my contraption is .. you could do similar its cheap and very easy to make.

i made a bracket from pvc foam board what i had laying around i used https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1508688
as my base point its much easier and faster to make then 3d print it although i 3d printed one but broke eventually , so also much durable then 3d printing. i had a piece of lead laying around to make the base not tip over .
further i made a round piece of the same pvc foam board and screw them on a piece of multiplex wood and only screwed 1 screw from the side of the pipe to hold the 3 " /75mm pipe.
the bracket i screwed with 2 screws on top of the 45 angled couplings.
SO yeah easy and cheap

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-08-08T13:23:23Z

Hello
I am very sorry for not writing for so long but I have had several problems and the truth is that I have not progressed as much as I would like,
First of all I made a mistake, the extrusion temperature is 245 ° C, however I have extruded at 245, 350 and 260 with successful experiences, of course at higher temperature lower viscosity which can be a problem when trying to get a decent diameter. however in that range I had no problems,
The main problems I have now is the filament guide and the winding of this one,
I have managed to obtain a 1.75mm amorphous PET filament but I have not been able to wind it, because when I try to place the filament in the filawinder, two things happen
1.- the filament tends to twist when I take it, the crooked sides do not enter the filawinder's plastic tube and I must start all over again
2.- the filament thins too much with the filawinder, it is really difficult to define an optimal speed so that the diameter of the PET filament is adequate and does not lose much weight,

I still can't find a way to use the photosensor to control this variable, the problem is that to obtain PET without crystallizing it is necessary that the extruder die is too close to the water, which does not leave room to place the photosensors

Regarding your questions, MAZHIVE
the nozzles are the stock, probe with a 1.75mm and a 3mm stainless steel
I really don't know how to obtain the extrusion speed, with respect to the voltage, I just know that I change my power source to a 15V and 5A, now I don't know what the number that delivers the stall protection means, but if it is the consumption can i give you that information

I will do my best to solve these problems and have favorable results, thank you very much for your feedback and as always attached images of the experiences

drying temperature, try to set the oven at 160 ° C to reduce residence times but it was impossible, it is a very old oven, at that temperature usually dry 24 hours
the new configuration of the filastruder, at 45 degrees greatly improves the feed to the worm and reduces the number of times the filament sticks to the nozzle
filastruder extrusion temperature
PET being fed into the hopper, the bottleneck effect does not practically occur, although I would like to add a vibration device to it to flow even better, I do not know if you know of any device and arrangement of this in the hopper for that purpose
PET if any type of very fine cooling, I had already noticed before and if you let cool very thin PET filament it does not crystallize, of course it is not usable for 3D printing, but it looked so good falling that I dropped a lot hahahahaha
a lot of that super thin filament
filament that if it has the necessary 1.75mm for printing, amorphous but very short, this was the result of simply dropping the PET in the cooling tub, many curves were produced and the size is also very short, in addition to the ends crystallized

464/5000
and this is what happens if you try to extrude PET powder, it is really a disaster, it sticks everywhere and does not melt at normal temperature, cover the nozzle and activate the stall protection, I spent 2 days cleaning that disaster, so that it doesn't happen to them, it was PET with a diameter smaller than 2.38mm, I don't know what the limit size of the PET flakes is before that problem occurs, I just put all the leftover PET that I screened with an N8 sieve, and that happened LOL

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-08-08T01:03:25Z

whoaw you allmost got it..
i was wandering what speed are you extruding , what voltage you where handling on.
and are you extruding at 145 c?? and do you have the stock nozzle or did you drilled it , i used 1,8mm now i have it drilled at 2 mm so i think i need to do some adjustments on the speeds..
i hope i will be able to do some more tests too since it has being along time that i started the project and i am willing to pick it up again since you are making so much progress ....

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-08-01T00:56:09Z

Very nice work!

You are making leaps on progress.

For drying PET you can use a high temp than 104c. 18 hours is a very long time to try PET, and if you increase the temp to 140-150c it will only take 6-8 hours.

It is normal for PET to crystallize when drying.

One idea for storing PET is to "dry" a bottle with the flakes, then store the flakes in the bottle.

Drying the bottle and the flakes will create a dry atmosphere in the bottle and should be safe for months of storage.

Another way to store any polar plastic (PLA, ABS, PET, PETG, PC, etc) is to use a non polar plastic container, like HDPE.

HDPE is non polar and doesn't absorb water, so you store for a very long time.

The stilson key (pipe wrench) is almost the same thing that I do!

I use 80/20 aluminium extrusion instead (so it doesn't rust) and I use a 1 meter long water bath to cool filament and spool.

I also run 4kg/hour so a bit faster

I enjoy the pictures, keep them coming!

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-07-31T22:18:38Z

Hello there
I have not commented for a while and I have had enough problems drying the PET, the equipment I use for this work is not mine and I depend on the goodwill and availability of those in charge,
Dehydrate PET at 104 ° C for about 18 hours, if not more (time registration was complicated because the oven they lent me was quite old and it took too long to reach the desired temperature) once with the sample ready I started to be extruded at 145ºC and with a cooling tub at 40ºC, (achieved thanks to the support of a little boiled water from a kettle) and the results could not have been more satisfactory, although initially the PET crystallized a little, after If the flow was regularized everything was excellent, the diameter is not ideal since it had to roll faster than desired so that the resin did not touch the die and formed a knot that would not allow the filawinder to continue using, nor was it possible to use the filament sensor since I have no idea how I could be willing with this new layout, a little imagination will solve that problem, I leave photos of the results as always and thank you very much coolio, without a doubt you have a lot of merit in everything that I have managed to advance, now it is only a matter of achieving a good diameter and filament tolerance and then testing it on a 3D printer or 3D pencil
I leave photos of the results as always
an obstruction in the die that did not allow me to continue with a test an obstruction in the die that did not allow me to continue with a test (note: clean the sieves before using them)
a desiccator in which a PET sample dried at 105 ° C for two hours was stored (it is still necessary to test whether said temperature and drying time are practical)
a photo of the dry PET at 104 hours for approximately 18 hours
Layout
Filament being guided by a stilson key hahahahaha, it was what I had on hand
image of the first piece of PET coming out, crystallized at the tip but after regularizing the flow there were no problems
filament being rolled up by the filawinder
Pretty decent filament but without the right diameter and tolerances (but solvable)
I already sent to buy the equipment that you suggested to me to maintain the temperature of the water (August is approaching and with that a lot of budget more so)

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-07-27T18:28:31Z

Look like your well on your way!!

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-07-26T22:00:20Z

Amazing tips, you're really helping me extrude to another level bro
Today I did two more experiments, one again with the filastruder placed vertically and with boiled water added to another little water at 35 ° C, with the temperature increase reaching about 50-60 ° C which greatly favored the non-crystallization of PET, I had many problems guiding the filament, but my main problem was the feeding and that is that the bottleneck effect that occurs prevents the flakes from flowing naturally, so in a second attempt place the filastruder horizontally and cut part of the hopper nozzle with the one that comes the filastruder, to take a broader step to the flakes, the results were incredible, in reality very little of the filament crystallized and the filament flow was very good, of course other problems occurred such that the filament stuck to the die extruder (Problem solvable with a correct guide) and the inability to leave the dice 2mm from the water as you suggested, (it is a matter of using the imagination, I know that I will know how solve it), well now I will have to wait until next week to continue experimenting since I run out of dry PET and the evaporator I use lends it to me, the sieves also lend them to me.
You have seen the prices of evaporating ovens! They told me that food dehydrators still fulfill the function but very high residence times are needed, between 10 and 12 hours,
As always attached photos of today's experiences and thank you very much for everything.
first experience with a 40 ° C cooling tub, better results than at 35 ° C although it still had crystalline zones
here some semi-crystalline PET
horizontal filastruder with cooling tub
a very cheap and improvised cooling tub (it will be improved by creating a series of guides that are capable of guiding the filament to the bottom of the tupperware and then tilting around and traveling the entire bottom until it comes out on the other side ready to roll
problems with the filament sticking to the extruder die, eventually a die perforated perpendicular to the feed channel could solve that problem and significantly reduce the distance between the die and the water (Tim elmore you should sell perforated dice perpendicularly hahahaha, people without drilling it appreciate)
horizontal hopper cut, it worked amazingly well
a large piece of filament quite decent, very amorphous and in general with a good diameter, with a good guide and the filawinder I know that I can get better results, although I don't know exactly how to use the filawinder's photosensors and thus use the automatic mode

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-07-26T16:22:27Z

Boiling water would help get the temp up, but not maintain it

I use this to heat my water initially: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M0 … &psc=1

But I'm extruding at such a high rate that the water stays hot from the filament passing through it.

This can be used to maintain your temp: https://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Thermost … amp;sr=1-9

My water temp is about 50c, but with PET you have to be careful to cool it properly. If it is cooled too fast, the outer skin of the filament gets hard and the inside stays liquid (bad). If it is cooled too slowly it will anneal and turn crystalline (also bad). The trick is to find a balance between hot and cool. Cool enough to prevent crystallization, but hot enough to let it flex in the water to spool it (the 90 degree bend from the nozzle to pulling out of the water).

As for that hydrolyzed area, that's really bad. It also looks like decomposition of the PET as well which causes all kinds of problems. Usually when PET degrades it plugs nozzles and filters so be careful.

It is hard to tell from the picture, but the water level should be right up to the nozzle, at the top most part of your container. It should be 1-2mm from the nozzle but not touching.

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-07-25T21:56:44Z

thank you very much for those tips, they are really very useful
Today I tried to extrude PET again.
I did it with the filastruder programmed for 250ºC.
I used unwashed PET flakes
dried at 170ºC and 3 Hours on 07/17/19 stored in a ziploc bag.
my cooling tub was at 35ºC (It was The highest I could reach with my fish tank heater, is that there are no fish that live at 50 ° C XD).
in the beginning the extrusion came out very heterogeneous with a very variable diameter and almost completely crystallized just out of the extruder die, it is possible that the residual PET has hydrolyzed inside the barrel, I never thought much about it however the PET is very hygroscopic so it is possible that it has absorbed moisture from the atmosphere and that has affected the quality of the extrusion, after a while it began to going out PET much more fluid, Amorphous and heterogeneous, when touching the water I could notice that sometimes it crystallized and sometimes it remained amorphous, perhaps because it does not reach the 50ºC that you suggested, I do not really know if the results f They were favorable or unfavorable, it's a shame that I don't have a YouTube account, so I could show you my experiences
I attach some images to make an image
distance between the dice and the water
Tempering temperature (Use a wine thermometer, at this point I am actually improvising a lot to get decent results)
the first filament that came out, very crystallized and not very homogeneous, perhaps due to a very thermodegraded and hydrolyzed PET
Filament with amorphous zones and crystalline zones
Probably the best result today, there are still crystalline areas, but I think it is because of the "low" water temperature

I'm tempted to use boiling water from a kettle to increase the temperature, but would I prefer something more accurate, how do you heat your cooling tub?

Re: pet cola bottles..filastruder. YES!!!

2019-07-25T13:26:40Z

It is important to note that when PET crystallizes it forms a cloudy opaque appearance since crystals have grown. When it is clear it is in its amorphous state.

https://www.ptonline.com/knowledgecente … rphous-pet

I did forget to leave that part of the water temp out, sorry about that. The water temp I use is about 50c. It is this hot for a few reasons:

1. It allows the filament to cool slightly slower and more evenly since it is not being "shocked" to cold.
2. It allows the filament to maintain some flexibility before it exits the water.

The idea is to cool the filament to the point that it stays clear (amorphous) but slightly flexible at water exit. This allows the filament to refrain from snaking as you try to spool it.

Another thing that is a point of discussion is the length of the water bath engagement. When I run (2kg / hour) (oh it is not a filastruder machine) the water bath engagement needs to be about 600mm long. But for slower extrusions it doesn't need to be as long. I don't have any science to explain the minimum length of engagement, but I would guess it to be (for the filastruder) about 50mm - 75mm at 50c.

I also do not use water circulation as the circulation creates inconsistencies in the final diameter. The filament moving through the water creates enough disturbance to circulate the water on its own.

As for drying PET. Typically semi crystalline resins need airflow (and pressure) to form enough movement to allow proper drying. PLA isn't so picky, but PET is. The basic idea of proper drying is to reach a temperature (if using only hot air) that forces the water to expel from resin, but to stay just below the agglomeration point.

https://www.ptonline.com/articles/why-a … eed-to-dry

If you are using something other than hot air (like a dual bed desiccant dryer) than you can use low temperatures to dry.

As for the viscosity, I can't say I've heard anything related to drying temperature and viscosity. There are a few things that can affect viscosity during extrusion, one mainly being how wet the resin is. If the resin has any type of moisture in it, hydrolysis will form and break down the polymer chains and cause the viscosity to appear more watery.

If properly dried, the resin will adhere to the MFR/MFI specifications set fourth by the manufacturer. And since viscosity has a huge impact on MFR, I would tend to believe the datasheet.

http://article.sciencepublishinggroup.c … 401.13.pdf

It looks like you are on the right track.