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	<title type="html"><![CDATA[SoliForum - 3D Printing Community — Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
	<link rel="self" href="https://www.soliforum.com/feed/atom/topic/11168/" />
	<updated>2015-05-19T01:52:13Z</updated>
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	<id>https://www.soliforum.com/topic/11168/looking-for-input-on-this-issue-with-my-custom-build-z-axis-rigidity/</id>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96230/#p96230" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>To get an idea of stiffness, steel is about 3x as stiff as aluminium. But a plain old rectangular section in bending has stiffness (approximately) proportional to width * height^3, so a 20mm aluminium solid square section would be about the same stiffness as a 15mm steel solid square section. I think people usually find this surprising. I did a wee calculation (based on real section modulus for 2020 extrusion) and found it&#039;s about 2.5 times as stiff in bending as a 12mm steel rod. I guess this is why it&#039;s popular for CNC, where stiffness is a big deal.</p><p>Running directly on the 2020 frame (e.g. with pulleys or teflon blocks or something) would likely be quite a good option. The z axis doesn&#039;t see a lot of cycles or speed, so you can worry less about wear than the x and y.</p><p>It&#039;s a bit of a conundrum this bed stiffness thing. Four corner rails, with double bearings on each corner (plenty of distance between the pairs, maybe even more than pirvan has there) - or something equivalent with bearings on the frame - and a z motor on either side would probably get you as close as you need. It&#039;s a fair bit of hardware though, which is probably why commercial / budget printers don&#039;t go there - they figure the bed stiffness is probably not as important as the cost.</p><p>My printer 2.0 is looking like 4 corner rails and some experimentation with spectra line and pulleys to positively restrain everything!</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[grob]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4515/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-19T01:52:13Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96230/#p96230</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96157/#p96157" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>mdrVB6 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For monk and claghorn- do you really think any type of wheels on rails system would be strong enough for a Z axis?&nbsp; I kinda feel that this needs a bearing on hardened rod solution.&nbsp; Keep in mind all the forces that are transmitted when you have to scrape a print off the bed.&nbsp; Got any examples of a successful Z axis using wheels?</p></blockquote></div><p>People build CNC machines with the openbuilds v-slot rails and wheels that probably experience much greater forces than bed scraping causes.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Claghorn]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/270/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-18T15:33:58Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96157/#p96157</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96147/#p96147" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>You could easily take your glass plate off and scrape it then if that was actually an issue.&nbsp; OpenBuilds has metal wheels available, <a href="http://openbuildspartstore.com/metal-v-wheel-kit/">http://openbuildspartstore.com/metal-v-wheel-kit/</a></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[accusedmonk]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3772/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-18T14:29:01Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96147/#p96147</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96142/#p96142" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>For monk and claghorn- do you really think any type of wheels on rails system would be strong enough for a Z axis?&nbsp; I kinda feel that this needs a bearing on hardened rod solution.&nbsp; Keep in mind all the forces that are transmitted when you have to scrape a print off the bed.&nbsp; Got any examples of a successful Z axis using wheels?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[mdrVB6]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4377/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-18T13:54:28Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96142/#p96142</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96080/#p96080" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>pirvan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You&#039;ll probably want to do a dual motor/screw Z axis, with the screws cross-corner from each other and smooth shapft on the other corners, like this:</p></blockquote></div><p>I&#039;m not quite sure I like this design.&nbsp; First, it only has two linear rods.&nbsp; If I did my idea and moved the linear rods to the left and right, I can have 4 rods and 2 lead screws.&nbsp; With only 2 rods, and assuming the lead screws are not supported at the top, you are putting some serious stresses on those two rods every time you do something like take a scraper to the build plate to remove a print.&nbsp; I&#039;m just not convinced it is sufficiently rigid.</p><p>My main question at this point is if I have to use two lead screws if I go to a 4 linear rod system and support them on the front/ back or left/ right.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[mdrVB6]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4377/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-17T18:33:25Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96080/#p96080</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96075/#p96075" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I have no real details worked out for my corexy Z axis design yet, but I also had figured on using the V-Slot rails and wheels to support the print bed with (as I imagine it now, anyway) two Z screws, one on the left side and one on the right in between the rails and wheels. Don&#039;t know if that will be remotely like the final thing ends up though :-).</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Claghorn]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/270/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-17T17:17:32Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96075/#p96075</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96074/#p96074" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>My approach on my design was to utilize the frame itself as the linear guides.&nbsp; I have plans being drawn up using the openbuilds vslot.&nbsp; That would eliminate the need for mounts and the extra rods.&nbsp; I planned on using a larger motor directly in the center, or like pirvans sketch using two opposite either other.&nbsp; I just see it as quite a bit more efficient using the frame since that&#039;s an option here.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[accusedmonk]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/3772/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-17T16:52:05Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96074/#p96074</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96072/#p96072" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>You&#039;ll probably want to do a dual motor/screw Z axis, with the screws cross-corner from each other and smooth shapft on the other corners, like this:</p><p><span class="postimg"><img src="http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&amp;item=5445" alt="http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&amp;amp;item=5445" /></span></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[pirvan]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/1357/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-17T16:38:02Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96072/#p96072</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Looking for input on this issue with my custom build (Z axis rigidity)]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://www.soliforum.com/post/96065/#p96065" />
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>So perhaps some of you have been following my (very slow) progress on building a solidoodle out of 2020 extrusion over in the projects forum.&nbsp; Here is the imgur album of the build, scroll all the way down to see the images relevant to this post: <a href="http://imgur.com/a/wSNoq">http://imgur.com/a/wSNoq</a></p><p>So the main issue that I am hung up on now is that the Z axis is just too flimsy as built.&nbsp; A bump on the table sends the whole build plate wobbling and there is visible bending on the bed holder.&nbsp; This is only from the weight of the parts themselves, I have been very careful to not apply any forces to it.&nbsp; The bending is not really surprising due to the fact that the table is only supported in the back with no braces.&nbsp; Apparently just because that bed holder worked for ultimaker does not mean it will work for me.</p><p>So I am looking to redesign the Z axis.&nbsp; I like using the 12mm rods and the M8 screw will do for now, but I&#039;m convinced a bed holder of this size simply cannot be cantilevered and must be supported from two sides.&nbsp; I see a couple options:</p><p>1.&nbsp; Get more 12mm rods and M8 threaded rods and another Z motor and move the entire Z axis assembly to the left and right sides of the machine.&nbsp; This presents a potential conflict with the moving X motor.&nbsp; Potential resolution:<br /></p><ul><li><p>The bed would have to be mounted on quite long M4 screws and springs to reach the hot end (which could lead to bed wobble).</p></li><li><p>Or I have to find a way to hang my hot end much lower, which would be an entire redesign of the X carriage (a lot of work).</p></li><li><p>Or I could cut a hole in the bed holder for the X motor to slide thru (which leads to a weaker bed holder)</p></li></ul><p>2.&nbsp; Get more components and add additional 12mm rods for support in the front of the machine.&nbsp; This eliminates the conflict with the X motor.&nbsp; However, I can&#039;t really do a dual Z motor configuration like this without putting the motor shaft/ M8 rod right up the front and center of my printer.&nbsp; This is clearly unacceptable from an aesthetics and functionality aspect, but I&#039;m not sure if 1 threaded rod will be enough to drive this relatively large and heavy bed holder.&nbsp; If it is only being driven on one side, I think it might cause binding.&nbsp; What do you think?</p><p>Both options require fabrication of a large bed holder with tight tolerances.&nbsp; I can design it in openSCAD and leave oval shaped screw holes in one side in case it needs slight adjustments.&nbsp; I could make this bed holder out of wood, but that does not offer as good as a strength to weight ratio of metal.&nbsp; I&#039;m thinking 1/8&quot; aluminum might be a good choice and I could look into getting it cut on a CNC or water jet aluminum cutting, although I have no idea what either of those would cost.</p><p>If none of the above results in a sufficiently rigid Z axis, my &quot;nuclear option&quot; is to abandon the solidoodle carriages and go to an ultimaker style gantry, eliminating the X motor conflict and moving the Z axis components to the left and right.&nbsp; I was originally inspired by this: <a href="http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:666549">http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:666549</a> so I know it can be done.&nbsp; This would also leave me the option to eventually change this printer into a coreXY design too, if I&#039;m ever feeling that ambitious.&nbsp; The downside of the ultimaker design is that I loose my ability to print ninjaflex with the bowden extruder.&nbsp; But I understand everything is a compromise.</p><p>Any thoughts on how I can make this Z axis better or move this build forward are much appreciated.&nbsp; Thanks.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[mdrVB6]]></name>
				<uri>https://www.soliforum.com/user/4377/</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2015-05-17T15:03:47Z</updated>
			<id>https://www.soliforum.com/post/96065/#p96065</id>
		</entry>
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