26

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

This is one of the reasons my prints never take longer than 8 hours. I can attend to it in that time frame. If I'm going to be away for any length of time, I just don't print it then.  It can wait.

27

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Skyminer wrote:

I want to make it very clear that from my perspective, this conversation is not specifically about Solidoodle; it is about the potential dangers of the technology.  My intent is not to point fingers, but simply raise awareness.  I've experienced first hand just how quickly a print can go from OK to terribly bad.  My son was sitting 20ft away with only a closed door between him and the fire, and he didn't smell anything until the smoke detector went off.  In was in the workshop 10 seconds later, and it was just an inferno.


If raising awareness is the goal then you should share your story with some reporters...hopefully the industry as a whole would become more aware of the problem then.  If you can scare anyone, parents of kids who want to get 3D printers included, with the thoughts of a fire you better believe the industry will take a hit and adjust as necessary...

Have you reached out to Solidoodle yet?

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

28

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

IronMan wrote:

Nobody sits and watches a Stratysys run overnight...regardless of the price difference, I as a consumer, expect a level of built-in safety with an appliance.


+1

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

29

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

I think the media would spin the story to "3D printers make guns AND will burn down your house". Very few people would get the real message, I imagine. I also think it would go in one ear and straight out the other when telling Solidoodle. "Sorry to hear that....can I sell you another?".

Personally, if it were to happen to me, I would not want the prying eyes of the media twisting my tragic story. I think he has done a great job raising awareness - conversing directly to a community that pays attention and learns from one another. The fact that so many people are discussing this is evidence he has made people aware.

Also, regarding the comment of "suing Solidoodle", SD has made statements regarding upgrading your printer. By which, if you upgrade, then you are pretty much in the doghouse when it comes to any support and whatnot. Since he had upgraded to the E3D, IF he were to persue legally, Solidoodle would quickly mention their upgrading parts statement found on their labyrinthian site.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

30

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

I'm not on a campaign again 3D printing or a particular manufacturer, I just want everyone to be aware of what can happen. No device is supposed to start a house fire, and while safeguards are a great idea, their adoption will only happen with community insistence.

There was a fire extinguisher in the room with my printer, but I couldn't get to it. There was a smoke detector right outside the (closed) door to the room. I was home, and my son was 30' away.  This particular print wasn't any more "unattended" than what we all do, unless you're sitting beside the printer.  That's just how fast it all happened. When you have that amount of plastic nearby, once it ignites, the show is over.

I'll provide more information about the specific printer setup when I can.  Right now we're dealing with everything else.

31

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Skyminer, I appreciate your level-headedness about all of this, and your unfortunate tale has opened my eyes (believe me!) to keeping a closer eye on my prints, so I thank you for that. So you've at least touched one person's situation to keep this from happening again.

Two SD3s - One with Sang, One with Printrboard, Fans on control boards!!! Do this!!!, Dual Glass Beds, Blacklight "EZ Bake Oven" - Improves Ambient Temp, Sketchup, Repetier, Slic3r. Graphic Designer & Makeshift Engineer. Drinks Lots and Lots and Lots of Rum.

32

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Skyminer I'm very sorry for what happened to you. I can only imagine what is such an experience. I completely support your opinion, a print can take many hours even for relatively small objects, it takes more time than cooking.

As a community we should raise awareness about this concern that could be summarized as "never leave a printer unattended". It's similar for the RC planes community, where is stressed never fly where there are people or buildings.

But human surveillance may prove not enough, it is far too easy to get distracted. I think as a community we should act proactively with active and passive defenses against major causes of hazard.
A paper printer stops if the paper jams because it senses the stepper motor are stalled.
If the fuser temperature in a laser printer goes through the roof a thermal fuse would trip.
There is little to none built-in protection in our Solidoodle.

Let's discuss in a separate thread like this http://www.soliforum.com/topic/6628/fir … enclosure/

33

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

ronsii wrote:

One idea might be a thermal fuse located on the outside of the heater block that would act at a temp below the melting of the block but high enough above the normal upper end of the E3D that it could not trip by accident, would be easy to install... but just like the thermistor if it lost contact with the block it would be useless until after meltdown and ignition... so maybe another bore hole in the E3D to accommodate the fuse with a locking screw?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the heater cartridge slips out of the block, or alternately, the thermistor comes off the block, wouldn't eventually trigger a "min temp" and "cold extrusion prevented", then kill the print job, which in the process turns off the heaters?

I sympathize with the OP, and it really got me a little worried, because I routinely leave the printer running over night or when I go to work.  Since the printer is in the same room I spend most of my time computer time on, I don't particularly enjoy hearing it work for hours on end, so I schedule the print jobs when I'm NOT in there.

I always though that the printer would simply kill the print job if something like the heater cartridge or thermistor were to fail or mechanically become disconnected.  I'm not worried about the power supply since it's fused so any internal short would trip the fuse.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

34

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

pirvan wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the heater cartridge slips out of the block, or alternately, the thermistor comes off the block, wouldn't eventually trigger a "min temp" and "cold extrusion prevented", then kill the print job, which in the process turns off the heaters?

Mintemp is set to around 5C by default. This would not be triggered in the example you mention.

Cold extrusion prevented only disables the stepper, not the heater.

35

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

So can't these settings be changed in firmware?

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

36

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

What if Cold Extrusion Prevented also triggered a shutoff of the heater if it happens during a job? If the heater or thermistor slips out,  it will cause a temperature drop.   It still doesn't protect you from a faulty power supply,  which also could have caused this.

37 (edited by agentsmith 2014-06-08 12:20:47)

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Could it be a dislodged thermistor that was still near the extruder and getting some of the radiated heat? The temperature would lower but not so much, in turn the firmware would keep heater on to regain temperature, but real temperature exceeded safe temperature. Or maybe ATmega freeze (not sure if watchdog is enabled) or MOSFET failure.

I read some MSDS about ABS around and it seems that the flash point is between 390-420°C and auto-ignition temperature is between 450-510°C. Can an always-on Solidoodle extruder reach those temperatures? What about limiting its maximum power?

See the discussion below on what could fail and how to prevent/contain failure
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/6628/fir … enclosure/

38

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Skyminer, my deepest condolences on your situation.. The photo you posted makes me feel physically sick and nervous to use the SD2 I just bought sad

To SD and everyone here, most will have forgotten that in the early 1900s it was commonplace for electrical appliances to start fires and injure or even kill people. These instances are what lead to institutions such as Underwriters Laboratories and the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval", etc.--institutions which are still operating today.

For 3d printers to gain mass acceptance, they have to be absolutely safe. To me the SD2 and SD3 don't look like products that aim for mass acceptance. But the SD4 on the other hand...

I have a Cubify Cube at home, and though I can't find the symbol on it, I read somewhere that they are UL listed (I can't find this either on UL's databases). But the point I want to make is the hot end on the Cube has 2 safety features:

1. A Cantherm Thermal Cutoff, Model DF77s is soldered inline with the thermocouple line. This particular element opens the thermocouple circuit at 77 deg C and is mounted in the extruder.

2. The thermocouple line is wrapped around what is either a thermistor or a glass encapsulated RTD. The element produces a voltage per temperature which the electronics can easily work with (mine has failed and was why I took apart my extruder).

Now, neither of these components will cost more than $2 in volume. Hoping this inspires some further discussion on the subject, -Greg

39

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

elmoret wrote:

I'm not aware of a thermal fuse with a trip point higher than 240C.

Thermal fuses look at ambient temperature, so placed even a few mm from the main heating element, the fuse can be rated much, much lower and still be functional. Taking into account the difference of the core heat and the radiating heat.

40

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Thermal fuses look at ambient temperature, so placed even a few mm from the main heating element, the fuse can be rated much, much lower and still be functional. Taking into account the difference of the core heat and the radiating heat.

Thst doesnt help if there is a fan on your extruder. Also, you really do want the cutoff on the heater block. You want to be certain to cutoff the power of the actual source. Otherwise, you could get to the point of an actual fire before the cutoff kicks in and its too late.

All of this only mitigates thermal runaway, and does not consider an equally likely occurrence of electrical short.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

41

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Skyminer, I'm really sorry about your loss of property and one of your pets. Thank you so much for taking the time to let us know what happened to you, as this will clearly be of benefit to the 3d printing community. I wish you the best as you rebuild your home and life.

42

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

elmoret wrote:

I'm not aware of a thermal fuse with a trip point higher than 240C.

How about this one?  It's listed as 280C.  I'm thinking I might add ones both to my SD2 and Filastruder as an extra measure:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H8SKNFO

43

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Thanks everyone for the well wishes; it's good to see that I've managed to raise some awareness and broker some discussion on the potential risks of 3D printers.  I certainly don't want to cry wolf as I do understand that there are many appiances that unintentionally start fires, but I also don't want to see what happened to me happen to anyone else.

I've not gone into any detail as to the particulars of my setup, mainly because it was not an atypical setup.

I received my Solidoodle 3 back in Feb of this year, and it worked beyond my expectations since day one.  I only really had a couple of problems that are typical.. 1) prints not sticking to the bed, and 2) the printer stopping in the middle of a print.  The first was solved with glass and hairspray; the latter by Solidoodle sending me a replacement power supply.  I ran the printer non-stop for 4 months.. when I was asleep, when I was home, and when I was out.  There was never a hint of risk, and even ended up with countless prints blobed around the hotend and the only side-effect was a bit of clogging of the stock hotend.  I did add an acrylic enclosure to the printer which essentially just covered the sides, front, and part of the top.

In May I switched over to a E3D v5 hotend.  The upgrade was straightforward and without incident.  I followed the directions posted on the forums here and everything went perfectly.  I did have a bit of wobbling of the printhead until I realized that during the reflash of the board it reset the extruder calibration; I recalibrated and was running again.

There was never any indication that a problem may be lurking.  I was actually printing an upgraded jigsaw at the time of the fire.  The hot end was set to 230 C and the print bed at 110 C.  I was printing with Makerbot brand ABS.

44

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Oh wow.  I finally got around to opening this thread.  Thanks for sharing.  SWMBO edicted the printer out of the house due to the fumes so it sits in the shed.  So I am *never* next to it using remote desktop and a webcam to control and monitor progress from the house.  Definitely going to get some smoke detectors out there...

45

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Skyminer wrote:

Thanks everyone for the well wishes; it's good to see that I've managed to raise some awareness and broker some discussion on the potential risks of 3D printers.  I certainly don't want to cry wolf as I do understand that there are many appiances that unintentionally start fires, but I also don't want to see what happened to me happen to anyone else.

I've not gone into any detail as to the particulars of my setup, mainly because it was not an atypical setup.

I received my Solidoodle 3 back in Feb of this year, and it worked beyond my expectations since day one.  I only really had a couple of problems that are typical.. 1) prints not sticking to the bed, and 2) the printer stopping in the middle of a print.  The first was solved with glass and hairspray; the latter by Solidoodle sending me a replacement power supply.  I ran the printer non-stop for 4 months.. when I was asleep, when I was home, and when I was out.  There was never a hint of risk, and even ended up with countless prints blobed around the hotend and the only side-effect was a bit of clogging of the stock hotend.  I did add an acrylic enclosure to the printer which essentially just covered the sides, front, and part of the top.

In May I switched over to a E3D v5 hotend.  The upgrade was straightforward and without incident.  I followed the directions posted on the forums here and everything went perfectly.  I did have a bit of wobbling of the printhead until I realized that during the reflash of the board it reset the extruder calibration; I recalibrated and was running again.

There was never any indication that a problem may be lurking.  I was actually printing an upgraded jigsaw at the time of the fire.  The hot end was set to 230 C and the print bed at 110 C.  I was printing with Makerbot brand ABS.

So in short, there is no conclusive evidence of what exactly failed and started the fire (by this I mean was it runaway heater, or electric spark, or did the PSU explode). I have done almost everything you have, and I even had my printer firmware freeze with the heaterblock stuck on. I also have another printer I built myself.

It makes me nervous to use my printers right now as I dont even have a smoke detector in my garage. I plan to make some major changes though now. Definitely not going to be printing while out/asleep anymore.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

46

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Have you reached out to Solidoodle yet?  I would like to hear what they have to say about this sort of issue.


also, topic has been stickied.

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

47

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

I actually talked to Sam about it last week.  I was in NYC for work and got to have lunch with some of the Solidoodle guys.  He said they felt really bad about it and want to try to figure out what went wrong.  They don't know much yet, and don't want to be too pushy about asking for more information since they know he has a lot to deal with right now.

48

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Briggs wrote:

Skyminer, I'm really sorry about your loss of property and one of your pets. Thank you so much for taking the time to let us know what happened to you, as this will clearly be of benefit to the 3d printing community. I wish you the best as you rebuild your home and life.

I was searching for the words to say to you Skyminer, Briggs captures it perfectly. 

Let us know if there's something we can do to help.  Does your family have a place to stay currently and do you have a community around you to help you rebuild?  Maybe we can help out in some way if there is something you need while you start to rebuild.

49

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Thanks for your concern everyone.  Naturally, it has been a horrendous ordeal to go through, but we're managing ok.  Thank you for your offers of help.

Yes, I have heard from Solidoodle.  To their credit, they gave me a call the day after (having read my post here) and extended not only their condolences for the loss of our pet and home, but it was clear that they are very concerned about what happened and that safety is of primary concern.

I want to make clear (as I've stated before), that I'm not trying to draw attention to Solidoodle in particular here, but rather 3D printers in general.  It's cutting edge technology, and as such, there are a LOT of printers out there that have been built to varying degrees of tolerance and safety.  Just be aware of the potential, and govern your printing accordingly.

Now that things are a bit more settled on my end I've provided what initial information I could to Solidoodle to help them evaluate where potential sources of risk may exist in their product.  I would hope that their findings (even if not related to a specific "failure") are shared with the community and other manufacturers.

50

Re: Beware your 3D printer (They can cause fires)

Thank you Skyminer and everyone for this discussion.  I really like the idea of more failsafes being built into the hardware and software of 3D printers.  However, there are other things we can do that are good practice.  For example, I always make sure to store my acetone far from the printer, especially during long unsupervised prints.  The fire risk was always in the back of my mind.  Rolls of plastic should probably be stored far as well.  My printer is under a window with curtains a few inches away.  That is going to change as well.