851

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

They can't really patent extruding 1.75mm rod any more than I can try to patent extruding 1.55mm rod.  As far as I can tell, the only thing really being patented here is using a laser micrometer, a microcontroller and a PID function to adjust the puller speed on the fly to keep filament within tolerances.  I don't know how effective it can really be, because the measurement has to be taken right at the die, before the filament has reached it's final diameter.  Otherwise it has to be a little further out which means it has to predict if a variance is going to go over the limit and make an adjustment in advance.  There will always be a little lag between the speed change and then the measurement of the effect of that change.

Everything else described in that patent is already standard practice.

852

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

IanJohnson wrote:

They can't really patent extruding 1.75mm rod any more than I can try to patent extruding 1.55mm rod.  As far as I can tell, the only thing really being patented here is using a laser micrometer, a microcontroller and a PID function to adjust the puller speed on the fly to keep filament within tolerances.  I don't know how effective it can really be, because the measurement has to be taken right at the die, before the filament has reached it's final diameter.  Otherwise it has to be a little further out which means it has to predict if a variance is going to go over the limit and make an adjustment in advance.  There will always be a little lag between the speed change and then the measurement of the effect of that change.

Everything else described in that patent is already standard practice.

Actually, the patent does not claim any of that stuff.  You have to read the 23 claims to see what they have patented.  On closer examination, they have patented FDM 3D printing method using 1.75mm filament.  All the stuff that comes before the claims is just to explain one or more practical applications of how it can be done in prior art or within the scope of the claims.  The 23 claims define the scope of the patent.  Most of the claims are just narrowing the scope by steps, so if some claims are deemed to broad, the can still claim the narrower version.  If the claims are narrow enough, and it has not been done before, the patent examiner can grant it.

So now I am thinking that this particular patent is not for making the filament, but printing with it.  They probably tried to patent that two, but were not allowed to, by the patent examiner.  It may have been an attempt to extend the life of an older patent for 3mm FDM.

853

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Dennis wrote:

Tim,
I was reviewing this patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US6866807 … mp;f=false
I was only issued in 2005.  I was wondering if it is still in force?
It seems to cover the various methods of making 1.75mm filament for 3D printers, and using 1.75mm filament for FDM.
I am wondering if the current suppliers of filament are making it under a license?

As Ian said, you can't patent making a certain size of plastic more than you can patent making 2x4s. You can patent the process or technology, but I don't use the techniques covered by the patent.

854

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

I should patent printing with 1.70mm filament too.

855

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

I would ignore the alleged patent.
For a start it's perfectly OK to DIY make anything that is already patented for your own use as long as you don't sell it.
However extruding filament in the way that is done here is simply not patentable as such  normal plastic extrusion has been done for nearly a century. Normal filament and textile extrusion is not patentable as any of the patents that did exist have lapsed.
The filament we use  is most definitely not patentable because round plastic filament has been widely manufactured for ages (and in a similar/ the same way) and for all sorts of applications, like textiles, fishing line, strimmer blade etc..

856

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Markx wrote:

I would ignore the alleged patent.
For a start it's perfectly OK to DIY make anything that is already patented for your own use as long as you don't sell it.
However extruding filament in the way that is done here is simply not patentable as such  normal plastic extrusion has been done for nearly a century. Normal filament and textile extrusion is not patentable as any of the patents that did exist have lapsed.
The filament we use  is most definitely not patentable because round plastic filament has been widely manufactured for ages (and in a similar/ the same way) and for all sorts of applications, like textiles, fishing line, strimmer blade etc..

I agree that this patent can be ignored, because contrary to the abstract, it does not CLAIM a method of extruding high precision filament. 

However, you are very wrong about the DIY use of a patent.  It is not legal to make a patented item or use the patented method for personal use. 

Given that, it is so extremely rare for this to be enforced, that it is not really a worry.  Unless you are advertising you transgressions in a public way (hello internet), who would know. 

However, you may make a copy of a patented item for research purposes as long as you do not use it in a practical way.  The law is very clear on these points.

857

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Hi all!
I just wanted to let everyone know I have some extruding grade PLA for sale.
If your interested let me know.
Thanks everyone!

858

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

PLA pellets?

859

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Yes

860

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Price? Pellet size? Resin ID?

861

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

$4.00lbs 4043d

862 (edited by Markx 2013-03-02 18:57:50)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

@Dennis

I don't know what country you're in but here in GB, afaik Europe and any free country it is absolutely fine to copy something that is already patented for your own use exclusively as long as you don't sell it.

863

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

printalot wrote:

Hi all!
I just wanted to let everyone know I have some extruding grade PLA for sale.
If your interested let me know.
Thanks everyone!

Which country are you shipping from?

864

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Markx wrote:

@Dennis

I don't know what country you're in but here in GB, afaik Europe and any free country it is absolutely fine to copy something that is already patented for your own use exclusively as long as you don't sell it.

I am in the US and it is illegal here.  What is the general wording of the GB patent law that makes it Ok? 
We have copyright law that makes it Ok to make personal copies as long as they are not distributed to anyone else.  Perhaps GB has something similar for patents?

865

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Here is a long article about 3D printing and potential infringements and exemptions which mentions  it in various places. I don't know which particular laws apply.
If you check number 8) 2nd paragraph down there is a  reference about how in GB most copying is specifically permissible for personal use:
http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/ahrc/script-ed/ … adshaw.asp

866

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

@ronsii


ronsii wrote:
printalot wrote:

Hi all!
I just wanted to let everyone know I have some extruding grade PLA for sale.
If your interested let me know.
Thanks everyone!

Which country are you shipping from?

USA

867

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Markx wrote:

Here is a long article about 3D printing and potential infringements and exemptions which mentions  it in various places. I don't know which particular laws apply.
If you check number 8) 2nd paragraph down there is a  reference about how in GB most copying is specifically permissible for personal use:
http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/ahrc/script-ed/ … adshaw.asp

Thank you for the link.  The GB law looks different than the US in that it is a bit more permissive of strictly personal use of IP.  However, it is clear from the article that posting a design for download or offering kits of a patented thing would not be considered legal, just as it would be legal to make a backup copy of your music CD, but not legal to post a copy of the CD data for others to download. 

I expect that it is a law that will evolve over time as it is tested in the courts, and/or changed through legislation.  IP holders will likely wait until they see some commercial harm or the possibility of recovering more rewards than the cost of the lawyers to take legal action.  I expect that there will be fair warning of intended legal actions by industry before any lawsuits start flying.  So we are probably flying under the radar until 3D printers become a common household appliance.

868

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

I ordered one of the machines that went with the "rev5" instructions. Why  did the directions say to connect an electrical wire directly from the wall socket to the chasis of the machine instead of just connecting 2 wires and wrapping them in duct tape? I got an electric shock from the machine, and am sure anyone else would if they didn't know about the wire.

869 (edited by elmoret 2013-03-04 03:58:55)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

knarf2011 wrote:

I ordered one of the machines that went with the "rev5" instructions. Why  did the directions say to connect an electrical wire directly from the wall socket to the chasis of the machine instead of just connecting 2 wires and wrapping them in duct tape? I got an electric shock from the machine, and am sure anyone else would if they didn't know about the wire.

Connect the GROUND wire to the chassis. If you connected the ground wire to the chassis and got a shock, you have something very wrong with your household wiring. Can you post a picture of what you did?

870

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Hugh Lyman won the Desktop Factory competition - http://techland.time.com/2013/03/04/how … -main-lead

871

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

IanJohnson wrote:

Hugh Lyman won the Desktop Factory competition - http://techland.time.com/2013/03/04/how … -main-lead

I just saw the same thing,  you beat me to it.  I can't read it yet going into a meeting but does it say how he did coloring?

http://www.3ders.org/articles/20130304- … ruder.html

872

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

No, but you can throw some masterbatch pellets into the hopper and it's colored.  I have an idea for a pellet dispenser upstream of the hopper, but I've been distracted with the other end the extruder.

Here is what I had setup at the Deezmaker get together yesterday -

http://solidoodletips.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/img_5996.jpg

It was a little tough to guide the filament to the puller without kinking it along the way, but once I got it going it settled in to a smooth loop and didn't try coiling or changing direction.  The tolerance was down to about .05, but at 210C I was still getting 1.90mm so I need to switch back to my original plug.  The hard part with this is coordinating the feed rates between the extruder and puller.  The extruder can vary by 1.5"/min so I would need to get an average feed rate over a decent length of time.  At the meetup I just kept an eye on the loop and dialed the puller speed up or down as needed.

An optical switch at the bottom of the loop is an option, but I'm not sure how I would mount it.  Also I wouldn't want the motor switching on and off because that would cause a lot of jerking around at the die.  Someone had suggested that it might be possible to take apart an optical mouse and use it to measure the speed of the filament.

873

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

things a beast ian! are you printing with your filament now?

874

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Just had a brainwave:
How about powering the coiling spool/reel from the screw drive?
That has ample power to drive via a light clutch mechanism or maybe the shaft for the spool and the spool spindle hole could be the clutch in itself.
Alternatively a flat belt of some sort works like a clutch.

875

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Markx wrote:

Just had a brainwave:
How about powering the coiling spool/reel from the screw drive?
That has ample power to drive via a light clutch mechanism or maybe the shaft for the spool and the spool spindle hole could be the clutch in itself.
Alternatively a flat belt of some sort works like a clutch.

I woudnt recommend adding any more torque to the screw drive. I get your theory and it would help a little bit with getting the puller and extruder in sync. But with IanJ used a wades which has gears on it so your already throwing the timing off.

I think it should be two interdependent systems.. linked together with software. Prob could use an Adruino board to achieve most of what we need. We could calculate extrusion rate and then calculate the needed pull rate and use the software atomoatically adjust when you increase or decrease speeds.