1 (edited by op7ical 2013-05-09 03:26:00)

Topic: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Update: new mount file attached.  It doesn't bump into things now!  Although if you use it, you need a party tray for your front door of the enclosure.

I have been working for a few days on a project to see just how far I can push overhang printing on my S2 Pro.  It all started when my package of 40mm fans finally came in (after 27 days...) from Hong Kong. 

As I mentioned in another thread, I was looking for a way to create an effective fan mount for my J-Head MK-V and Lawsy's MK IV.  Having tried a ring duct nozzle (and one before when I used the original Solidoodle hot-end), I was not satisfied with the relatively weak current of air emanating from it.  DePartedPrinter suggested I drop the ring duct completely, and to go with a direct duct instead.  I decided on a somewhat different course: to just eliminate the ducts altogether.  This is somewhat similar to g00bd0g's fan mounts on Thingiverse.  What I did is design a mount that works for two simultaneous fans focused on the nozzle and the print.


The resulting hack is here:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Kee5PjlZf3k/UX0wWYO5J8I/AAAAAAAAAWg/eI2j90fFtnI/w512-h384/20130428_101054.jpg


Note: I have included an "FAQ" section at the bottom of the post to explain my decisions and address some of the possible questions people have.  Please be sure to read it!


Now, here are the results of the mod!  In the below video, I demonstrate the printing of a 2cm x 2cm square region that is essentially floating, except for four support pillars.

You can see a bit of failure at the beginning of the print, but more than 80% of the (completely unsupported) overhang region is flawless.  I call it "Floating Perimeter Bridging" since it relies on the adhesion of bridge material to floating perimeters.

To prove the quality of my approach, here are some underside shots of three replications:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DY7ULmZ9N34/UX0wrZKBy7I/AAAAAAAAAXA/Vs-ZZLbtEqA/w512-h384/20130428_102154.jpg

You can see that there is very little sag.  It is starting to approach the quality of an ordinary print surface.



Now, the PhD student in me insists on proper scientific methodology, so here is the comparison of the same print without any cooling:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hBk8RzLX8Mo/UX04Q1j37QI/AAAAAAAAAXE/VSxbnTRVAq8/w512-h384/20130428_105433.jpg

So it seems clear that it has a substantial effect.  Of course, it may be possible to achieve the same overhangs without my ridiculous dual fans.  So I encourage others to try it with an ordinary fan duct.  Maybe it works great, who knows.  I just want to help push things forward!

Conclusion / Recommendations
I think that we can be close to achieving some big improvements in minimal-support print techniques. 

What I can suggest from the experiment is this:  with proper cooling, any polygonal surface in which all, and only the vertices are supported, should be printable.  (given reasonable distances) 

I have attached the STL file for the test print, and the STL for the fan duct mount.  The test print is a slice off the top of the BallCageTwist from thingiverse (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:42074). 

For printing the fan mount, flip it by 180 degrees so that it prints nicely.  Be sure that you use cooling or dummy prints to let the fan mount section cool off properly as it prints.  To mount it, you can glue 1/4" magnets into the mount holes (two in each hole).  It might tend to flip up a bit when mounted to the Lawsy MK IV mount.  I just glued a little beam on top of the body of the MK IV that pushes down on the fan mount to hold it down.  You can see it in the first picture of this post.

Future work includes:
-Bowden-Doodle for better fan placement
-Characterization of long rectangular objects to assess warp
-Other polygonal surfaces such as triangles or pentagons.

*****FAQ Section*****

There are a number of questions that probably come to your mind, and for good reason.  These might be:
-Why do you need two fans?
-Doesn't that cool the bed down?
-Doesn't that cool the extruder down?
-Won't that cool the part unevenly?
-Won't you get brittle parts from too fast of cooling?
-Won't that abomination of a fan mount hit the Solidoodle frame?
-Why don't you just print the part upside-down?

So, allow me to address these.  First, though, I will explain my fundamental reason for going this route.  Without going into too much detail, the approach is to forcibly neutralize any thermal gradients on the part as it is printed (with the exception of those produced by heat conduction through the bed).  By using two fans, the amount of airflow is staggering.  Most of the part is close to room temperature at all times.  Thus, there is only one temperature gradient, and it is in the vertical direction. 

Now to go through the concerns:

-Why do you need two fans?
Wider coverage of the surface area, and more intense cooling.


-Doesn't that cool the bed down?  Will this make the part pop off?
When you use an enclosure, the case reaches something of an equilibrium where the temperature of the bed is not affected very much by the fans.  It actually has the effect of increasing the ambient temperature due to pushing heat off the bed more rapidly.

-Doesn't that cool the extruder down?
Yes, but who cares.  The resistor puts out so much heat that it is easily able to maintain the setpoint perfectly.  Actually, the fans help since it kills the overshoot by a lot.

-Won't the placement of the fans cool the part unevenly?
For sure, it could be a lot better.  However, there is so much airflow that the part tends to just cool instantly anyway.  I am contemplating going to a custom Bowden setup so that I can move the fans to a more symmetric orientation.

-Won't you get brittle parts from too fast of cooling?
No, because if your plastic is hot enough, it will still have time to melt the adjacent layer and form a good bond.  I have noticed no difference in strength so far.

-Why don't you just print the part upside-down?
Because I like to make myself suffer unnecessarily.  No, but really, I'm just trying to address the problem in a pure fashion.


Implementation details: (updated 5-8-13)

Mount: Lawsy's MK IV
Nozzle: J-Head MK-V-BV @ 228 C (not solidoodle hotend temperature) (also, updated)
Case: Fully enclosed with party tray in front side
Surface: Glass w/ Aquanet Unscented

Important Slic3r settings:
-5 perimeters
-40 mm/s perimeter speed
-50 mm/s bridging speed
-180 mm/s travel
-2000 mm/s^2 bridge accel
-3000 mm/s^2 perimeter accel
-2000 mm/s^2 infill accel
-0.8 bridge flow ratio
-0.2mm layer height
-0 mm lift z
-Turned off "cooling" in slic3r (my fan runs all the time)
-Used 2mm of brim for this part, but not necessary for larger objects.

Post's attachments

angle_duct_f.stl 233.91 kb, 15 downloads since 2013-05-08 

topceilingtest.stl 762.58 kb, 10 downloads since 2013-04-28 

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2

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Nice MKIV wink

3

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Nice MKIV

Haha.  It's still working great!  Plus, the blue always cheers me up, even when prints go bad.

4

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Have you tested this setup with PLA?

I edit my posts a lot.

5

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Have you tested this setup with PLA?

Not yet.  I don't have any PLA around, unfortunately.  I have heard that PLA is a bit oozy, so this might be particularly helpful.

6

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

I love to see people on this site always trying to push the printers limits.  One of these days I want to add a fan controlled by Repetier to turn on and off.  I think you could come very close to the same results by honing in your temp and speed settings. I've been able to bridge well over 2 inches with these settings tuned in with great results.  I believe with a fan and the proper settings you should be able to make small 90 degree turns without support.  I'm moving things around in my office right now but in the next few days I will try to print this STL without using fans to show you what I'm talking about.

7

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

I think you could come very close to the same results by honing in your temp and speed settings. I've been able to bridge well over 2 inches with these settings tuned in with great results.  I believe with a fan and the proper settings you should be able to make small 90 degree turns without support.

Sounds good, yes please do give it a try once you have time.  I would agree that honing the temperature and speed are important, but they can't solve every situation - in some cases, it is simply the conduction of heat through the extruder which prevents these structures from solidifying in time.  This is one of the challenges of this object.

I too am curious about 90 degree turns, so maybe I will mess around with that for a while.

8

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Really cool video, but two questions:
1. I noticed you have nothing on the x-motor to prevent overheating, does all the weight of the fans/mount put more pressure on the motor? I'm curious how hot yours is after the mod.

2. I'm electronically challenged, I recall in a thread about an extruder fan that there was only enough room on the board to wire a single fan, how did you power the two fans? Is it related to why your fans were always on rather than controlled?

9 (edited by elmoret 2013-05-08 01:18:32)

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Shameless wrote:

Really cool video, but two questions:
1. I noticed you have nothing on the x-motor to prevent overheating, does all the weight of the fans/mount put more pressure on the motor? I'm curious how hot yours is after the mod.

Stepper motor drivers have current limiting. The power consumption should not drastically change between unloaded and loaded. Furthermore, adding a few grams of weight on a linear bearing results in milligrams of force needed. Inertia is similarly negligible for something so light.

Shameless wrote:

2. I'm electronically challenged, I recall in a thread about an extruder fan that there was only enough room on the board to wire a single fan, how did you power the two fans? Is it related to why your fans were always on rather than controlled?

There's one free PWM channel on the sanguinololu, but you can run as many fans off it as you like as long as you don't mind them behaving the same. It's like multiple lightbulbs in a chandelier.

http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/f/f5 … u_1.3a.png

10

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Yep, elmoret is correct.  For my implementation, I don't even use the PWM on the board, though.  Mine is just running straight from an external power supply.  As a matter of fact, it's one that elmoret posted a while back.

When used with an enclosure, the always-on fan approach works extremely well for me.  I will document this more later, but for now I can say that it has helped quite a bit in reducing warp. 

Also, I have updated the fan mount .stl file.  The new version is much closer to the extruder, and actually fits without bumping into stuff.   If you are using an enclosure, which you should, it will require a plastic party tray for the front door since the fan sticks out past the case a bit.

11

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Have you had any problems with layers cooling too quickly and failing to stick to the next layer?

12

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

From the FAQ section:

op7ical wrote:

-Won't you get brittle parts from too fast of cooling?
No, because if your plastic is hot enough, it will still have time to melt the adjacent layer and form a good bond.  I have noticed no difference in strength so far.

13

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

So I'm reading that right that you are printing at 231C?  Do you have a lot of clogs due to cooked plastic in the nozzle?  The highest temp I've printed at is 200.

14

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

wilheldp wrote:

So I'm reading that right that you are printing at 231C?  Do you have a lot of clogs due to cooked plastic in the nozzle?  The highest temp I've printed at is 200.

J-head 231C is like Solidoodle 200C.

15 (edited by DePartedPrinter 2013-05-08 15:39:54)

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Nice, Something to go with my new j-head...

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=1938&download=0

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SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

16

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Nice, Something to go with my new j-head...

Haha, your wiring job is a lot better than mine.  Looks like a very solid fitting.  I'm sure you will have a good time printing with that nozzle.

17

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

DePartedPrinter wrote:

Nice, Something to go with my new j-head...

Departed, have you had any problems with the jhead melting the MK4 mounting surfaces?  I designed a similar mounting system and partially melted it using the extruder that came with my machine.

http://www.pdxmc.com/uploads/SD3/20130507_221836.jpg

18

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

nlancaster wrote:
DePartedPrinter wrote:

Nice, Something to go with my new j-head...

Departed, have you had any problems with the jhead melting the MK4 mounting surfaces?  I designed a similar mounting system and partially melted it using the extruder that came with my machine.

I have not had any problems yet but I only only have about 3 hours print time with the new hot end.  The MK-V-BV has the cooling slots built into it which seem to help dissipate any heat traveling up the barrel.

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

19

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

Welp time to order me a jhead then. Was always in the plans. seems to have much better heat up times. and more accurate temperature sensing.

20

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

op7ical wrote:

Nice, Something to go with my new j-head...

Haha, your wiring job is a lot better than mine.  Looks like a very solid fitting.  I'm sure you will have a good time printing with that nozzle.


It has been printing like a champ!  Glad my stock SD hot end finally bit the dust so I could justify the upgrade.

230C in 90 seconds. Cant complain...

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

21

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

How are you holding the thermistor in the block?  It looks a lot neater without the Kapton wrapped around it.  I tend to overdo mine just to be safe and not give the wires a chance to move around and get fatigued.

22

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

IanJohnson wrote:

How are you holding the thermistor in the block?  It looks a lot neater without the Kapton wrapped around it.  I tend to overdo mine just to be safe and not give the wires a chance to move around and get fatigued.


I hate the look of kapton tape wrapped around everything so for now it is just being held in place by the tension from the wiring wrapping around the front. It fit somewhat snug into the hole and I loaded it with thermal compound. It is holding in place for now and I have inspected it multiple times finding no movement. Time will tell if this holds up.

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23

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

If the thermistor falls out, there is no fail safe.  The hot end will heat up to its max while the thermistor reads room temperature.  So be absolutely certain that it will hold.

24

Re: SoliDualCool -> Floating Perimeter Bridging -> Massive Overhangs!

IanJohnson wrote:

If the thermistor falls out, there is no fail safe.  The hot end will heat up to its max while the thermistor reads room temperature.  So be absolutely certain that it will hold.


I have it pinched with the wiring coming off of the resistor. I have tried my hardest to get it to come out but I have not been able to yet.

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/