1 Topic by mmiller7 (edited by mmiller7 2017-01-02 02:26:43)

  • mmiller7
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-07-26
  • Posts: 29

Topic: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

I've got another new issue that has me a bit confused what to do.

I'm printing some very large parts (with brim they are within a few mm of the limit of my Solidoodle 2 build area).  I had issues with them curling and coming off the freshly-applied kapton tape so I re-adjusted stuff, cleaned the tape with acetone, put some tissues to help hold heat at the edge...and now I have a new problem.

My part is sticking to the kapton tape just fine but now the kapton tape is being ripped off the aluminum heated bed the edges of the part curl while being printed.

This is a new issue to me, I've never previously had tape "peal" off the build platform (usually I struggle to remove damaged tape) and I can't find anything about it online (other posts address parts not sticking to tape, this isn't my problem).

I'm using white ABS at 203C and the heated bed at 100C.  Since I ran out of the heavier Kapton tape I'd ordered from Solidoodle I got a few 8x10 sheets from Amazon and cut them down after applying them.  I liked the old Solidoodle tape, I went probably 2 years of printing before I had to replace the factory sheet of kapton and another year and a bit on the spare sheet I got at the same time as the printer.  This new stuff I got starts pealing up (then tearing) after just 2-3 prints.

EDIT:
When I apply my kapton tape I apply it "dry" on the aluminum plate, starting at one edge and working my way across with a credit card or similar thing as a "spreader" to ensure I don't trap any bubbles.  I've seen others suggest soapy-water but still skeptical doing this will let the adhesive "stick" as good as just putting it on a clean surface, maybe I'm not understanding something that I need to know.

2 Reply by AZERATE

  • AZERATE
  • AZERATE
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 2013-11-28
  • Posts: 2,077

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

I would recommend ripping the kapton off and switching to glass or mirror. I went 2.5 years on the same mirror and the only problem I had was why I had to retire that sheet....too great of adhesion.

Tear away the kapton, spray the bottom of the glass or mirror with hairspray (Aqua Net reccomended), slap the glass on your aluminum bed and cycle your heat from ambient temp to 100c three times, let it cool each time, then a fine dusting of hairspray or few swipes of purple glue stick and you will solve you problems.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

3 Reply by heartless

  • heartless
  • heartless
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Northcentral Wisconsin
  • Registered: 2015-04-08
  • Posts: 2,152

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

couldn't agree more with AZERATE - forget the Kapton tape - go glass and never look back.

I use mirror tiles found at the local home center - box of 6 costs about $10 - a cheap glass cutter to cut them down to size, stick it down with Aqua Net Extra Super Hold (purple can), a couple light dustings on top and we are off to the races.

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
Printit Industries Beta Tester - Horizon H1

4 Reply by mmiller7 (edited by mmiller7 2017-01-02 14:42:27)

  • mmiller7
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-07-26
  • Posts: 29

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

AZERATE wrote:

I would recommend ripping the kapton off and switching to glass or mirror. I went 2.5 years on the same mirror and the only problem I had was why I had to retire that sheet....too great of adhesion.

Tear away the kapton, spray the bottom of the glass or mirror with hairspray (Aqua Net reccomended), slap the glass on your aluminum bed and cycle your heat from ambient temp to 100c three times, let it cool each time, then a fine dusting of hairspray or few swipes of purple glue stick and you will solve you problems.

I've considered glass, I even got 2 sheets of glass at the hardware store not long after getting the printer.

I'm nervous about breaking it when I remove parts.  I've had things before where they REALLY stick hard to the kapton tape and I'd be afraid the amount of prying force I have to use would shatter glass.

So far I've had really good luck with the kapton tape sheets but finding a source for ones that hold up has been an issue since Solidoodle went under.  I don't know what kind their tape was but it seemed to hold up forever.

P.S. is hairspray enough to hold the glass to the build platform?  Most people I see say to use binder clips?

5 Reply by heartless (edited by heartless 2017-01-02 15:23:37)

  • heartless
  • heartless
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Northcentral Wisconsin
  • Registered: 2015-04-08
  • Posts: 2,152

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

Yes, the hair spray is enough to hold the glass to the platform. I have had the same piece of mirror tile stuck down that way on my most used SD4 for over a year now. it does not move - unless I want it to. I have 4 printers with mirror tile beds, and all 4 are done this way. Never had an issue.. even the kossel, that hardly ever gets used, has it's mirror tile still stuck down quite firmly. (binder clips are for rookies wink haha)

And using the hairspray (or glue stick) on top for adhesion of the part - once done, let it cool and it usually comes off quite easily - I have left some prints sit overnight (didn't get done until late - i do not leave my printers running unattended) and in the morning they are loose, just pick them up.

If I am being impatient and want it off before the bed cools, or need to run another part right away, I use a single edge razor blade to get under the edges of a piece, and I can usually pop it free with not a lot of effort. On a large piece I may need to use the putty knife to get further under it to pop it free.

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
Printit Industries Beta Tester - Horizon H1

6 Reply by Tin Falcon (edited by Tin Falcon 2017-01-02 15:45:29)

  • Tin Falcon
  • Tin Falcon
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: New Jersey, USA
  • Registered: 2014-08-01
  • Posts: 2,424

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

I'm nervous about breaking it when I remove parts.  I've had things before where they REALLY stick hard to the kapton tape and I'd be afraid the amount of prying force I have to use would shatter glass.

No need to be nervous . I have printed on glass for over two years on two printers have yet to break a piece of glass.  If you let the glass cool after a print it will often pop right off with little to no force.
Or use  a razor scraper under the edge to pop off a print.

is hairspray enough to hold the glass to the build platform?  Most people I see say to use binder clips?

You have two people with over a thousand posts each and years of experience giving the same advice why do you feel like you have to question there advice. If these two say it works it will work.

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

7 Reply by AZERATE

  • AZERATE
  • AZERATE
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 2013-11-28
  • Posts: 2,077

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

I don't recommend binder clips as they can cause your aluminum bed to warp over time. Aqua Net works exceptionally to keep the glass in place. If you have a part that bonded too well, remove the glass and pop it in a freezer for 20 seconds. You'll hear the part "pop" off clean.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

8 Reply by mmiller7

  • mmiller7
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-07-26
  • Posts: 29

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

Tin Falcon wrote:

I'm nervous about breaking it when I remove parts.  I've had things before where they REALLY stick hard to the kapton tape and I'd be afraid the amount of prying force I have to use would shatter glass.

No need to be nervous . I have printed on glass for over two years on two printers have yet to break a piece of glass.  If you let the glass cool after a print it will often pop right off with little to no force.
Or use  a razor scraper under the edge to pop off a print.

is hairspray enough to hold the glass to the build platform?  Most people I see say to use binder clips?

You have two people with over a thousand posts each and years of experience giving the same advice why do you feel like you have to question there advice. If these two say it works it will work.

Not trying to question the advice, but I would rather ask and get clarification or a suggestion (like letting it cool - I never do that myself) to avoid a lot of headache and/or injury when I screw up.

In this case it sounds like it paid off because now I know that parts may release easier when they cool, something I didn't know before.  Usually I'm there the last minute of a print watching it finish and prying it up the moment the hot-end parks.

9 Reply by Ski52

  • Ski52
  • Ski52
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Florida USA
  • Registered: 2013-10-23
  • Posts: 332

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

+1 on the glass & hairspray.  I've been using one piece for 3 years.  I still use 2 binder clips.  I remove the glass with the finished print usually immediately after each completion.  Takes me 3 minutes to heat it to 97C, but 20 minutes to cool off. 
Either way with the clips or not, glass & hairspray is the way to go!

Ender 3 Pro

10 Reply by mmiller7

  • mmiller7
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-07-26
  • Posts: 29

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

Ski52 wrote:

+1 on the glass & hairspray.  I've been using one piece for 3 years.  I still use 2 binder clips.  I remove the glass with the finished print usually immediately after each completion.  Takes me 3 minutes to heat it to 97C, but 20 minutes to cool off. 
Either way with the clips or not, glass & hairspray is the way to go!

I'm finding I think I need to use binder clips unless there's some other tip.  I got some of the purple aqua-net extra-super-hole professional spray and gave both sides of the glass a light coat and dropped it onto the build platform, after 3 cycles from room-temp to 100 I ran a small print.  It seemed fine until I went to remove it and then the glass slid totally off the build platform.

11 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,623

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

You want the underside of the glass heavily coated (wet).  This will form bubbles that are visible through the glass.  Then do your 3 heat cool cycles.  Remember the glass is perfectly flat and the aluminum is not.  The bubbles will act as micro shims and allow for a strong yet removable bond.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

12 Reply by heartless (edited by heartless 2017-01-03 01:22:24)

  • heartless
  • heartless
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Northcentral Wisconsin
  • Registered: 2015-04-08
  • Posts: 2,152

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

what wardjr said... bottom needs to be pretty wet - not dripping, but a good, heavy coating... only the top side gets the light coats..

SD4 #1 & #2 - Lawsy carriages, E3D v6, Rumba controller board, mirror bed plate, X motor fan, upgraded PSU & Mica bed heater
SD4 #3 - in the works ~ Folgertech FT-5, rev 1
Printit Industries Beta Tester - Horizon H1

13 Reply by AZERATE

  • AZERATE
  • AZERATE
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 2013-11-28
  • Posts: 2,077

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

wardjr wrote:

You want the underside of the glass heavily coated (wet).  This will form bubbles that are visible through the glass.  Then do your 3 heat cool cycles.  Remember the glass is perfectly flat and the aluminum is not.  The bubbles will act as micro shims and allow for a strong yet removable bond.

+1
I apologize for not making this clear enough.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

14 Reply by mmiller7

  • mmiller7
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-07-26
  • Posts: 29

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

AZERATE wrote:
wardjr wrote:

You want the underside of the glass heavily coated (wet).  This will form bubbles that are visible through the glass.  Then do your 3 heat cool cycles.  Remember the glass is perfectly flat and the aluminum is not.  The bubbles will act as micro shims and allow for a strong yet removable bond.

+1
I apologize for not making this clear enough.

Ah, that may be the issue then.  I'll give it another go when I have a chance (sadly it's time to go back to work in this new year) hopefully this week.

15 Reply by mmiller7

  • mmiller7
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-07-26
  • Posts: 29

Re: Very large ABS parts curling, kapton not sticking to build plate?

Just wanted to thank you all for the suggestions, I'm still having minor issues with the glass not "sticking" to the build platform when I go to remove parts (it stays on while I print though) but a couple small binder clips work around that.

For now it seems like the glass is working, I got about 3/4 of the way through redoing my really-big print again with zero curling.  Still don't know if it is a total success because at that point it almost ran out of filament - so I stuck my hand in to feed the next spool (while it was still running, naturally) and accidentally jammed/misaligned XY axis making it miss steps and mis-align so I had to abort the printing.  Maybe next weekend I can try again.

And also thanks for the removal tip, waiting for it to cool is painfully slow but does do wonders for popping the parts off easily.