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Topic: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Resin: Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 (datasheet: http://www.eastman.com/Literature_Center/M/MBS80.pdf )
Purchased here.  Price is $2.72 a pound from this particular seller (they will not sell less than 55lbs per order though), so about the same as ABS pellets in this quantity.  Mine had a bit of a leak (the inner plastic bag developed a hole during shipping, and the tape would let some leak out when moving the box), but they include a little more than the stated 55lbs, so even with it losing some pellets in transit (and on the way from my front porch to the garage) I still got at least 55lbs according to my scale.

Equipment used:  Filastruder 2.0, vertical, with a 15V heater, and 2.2mm nozzle.

Extruded temperature and diameter results: It actually extruded at 190C, and the stock 1.6mm nozzle right on the nose 1.75mm and with little variation but it was too much for the motor.  It required average current of ~2A, and occasionally when shearing a pellet in the hopper it wanted to spike up to 2.5A which worried me too much to let it run long.  At 225C and a 2.2mm nozzle the average motor current is 1.5-1.7A, and spikes up to ~2.1A on occasion (usually followed by the sound of a pellet shearing in the hopper).  At 225C I get between 1.78mm to 1.65mm so not as good as 190C, but a lot friendlier on the motor gears.

Drying this type of pellet is VERY important.  If it's slightly wet (and this can happen just by putting a full 1Kg in the hopper and in the couple of hours it takes the extruder the top pellets have already absorbed water) you will get bubbles in your filament.  If it's absorbed A LOT of water (such as sitting out in the air a few days) it becomes unextrudable until you dry it.  It becomes runny and drips out like a liquid if it's got a great deal of moisture in it.

I also used OS3DP's green colorant from (here).  His website doesn't mention copolyesters or PETG at all, so I decided to try myself and see what happens.  It actually comes out as translucent green and looks really good.  We're heading into the season of red and green, and it definitely matches the 'Christmas' green that is so common.  I did have sections that were a little darker green than other areas but it was overall more consistent than pellet colorant.

It behaves similarly to commercial bought PETG filament - strong, more durable than ABS or PLA, more flexible than PLA, but less flexible than ABS.  Warps MUCH less than ABS, but a little more than PLA.  PETG has fantastic layer bonding - that's it's real strength for 3D printing.  Here is a Youtube video of tests done that show PETG taking almost as much to pull apart objects along layer boundaries as it does to tear them apart horizontally.  That guy has a whole series where he does similar tests with filaments, so you can compare the results with ABS and PLA.

Here are the raw pellets along with some silica desiccant:
http://soliforum.com/i/?ibzh7Ev.jpg


Here it is extruding:
http://soliforum.com/i/?xl5GPM4.jpg


Here is the spool:
http://soliforum.com/i/?bc5TpgG.jpg


Here are some nut adapters I printed for a new printer build (16.5 inch by 18.5 inch printable area is the goal, Tnuts were $35 a pack, but with these printed adapters I turned a $3 pack of jam nuts into the same thing):
http://soliforum.com/i/?K0m2gN3.jpg


Here is something made for someone else, a cat pen holder:
http://soliforum.com/i/?ihlcqtB.jpg


Painted with a white base paint:
http://soliforum.com/i/?VZz39iB.jpg


Using my minimal painting skills to add some eyes:
http://soliforum.com/i/?KuHBpAP.jpg


Made a new mount for my Mostly Printed CNC - http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:724999 :
http://soliforum.com/i/?pS1gpIl.jpg


Here it is after adding green colorant from OS3DP:
http://soliforum.com/i/?NH7V7nc.jpg


Here it is extruding:
http://soliforum.com/i/?ntLl34E.jpg


Here it is right after it started going on the spool, you can see how translucent it is by looking at the black tape under the first layer:
http://soliforum.com/i/?UXvGT8d.jpg


Here is the finished spool of green:
http://soliforum.com/i/?rwyI98b.jpg

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Nice! I have wanted to try PETG but couldn't find a decently priced pellet source. Not sure I want to buy 55lb though, don't suppose you'd sell me 10 or 20 lbs? smile

Color looks a lot more consistent with the powder than the masterbatch I have. I actually don't make colors much because of that. I might have to order some of that.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

ttabbal wrote:

Nice! I have wanted to try PETG but couldn't find a decently priced pellet source. Not sure I want to buy 55lb though, don't suppose you'd sell me 10 or 20 lbs? smile

Color looks a lot more consistent with the powder than the masterbatch I have. I actually don't make colors much because of that. I might have to order some of that.

The powder coats all the pellets, so it's definitely more consistent than masterbatch. 

The problem with parting it out is shipping.  A USPS medium flat rate box is around $12, then about $15 after their little fee addons, so for 10lbs, even at $3/lb or $30, once you add $15 in shipping the price is 50% higher ($15 shipping on $30 item) and you're almost at the same rate as somebody like 3dxtech (about $5.33 with 5% returned via their reward program so about $5/lb).

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Really excellent work here - I think this is the first posting of extrusion from raw PETG pellets. I'd agree with your comments regarding motor torque. One think you might consider trying is removing the barrel insulation - that should reduce motor load and allow you to decrease temperature somewhat without overloading the motor.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Yeah, I wondered if shipping might kill it. That's ok, I'll wait a bit and maybe get my own box of it. My only complaint with PETG is gluing it together is kind of a pain. Overall it prints great.

6 (edited by genesat1 2016-11-02 01:48:37)

Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

ttabbal wrote:

Yeah, I wondered if shipping might kill it. That's ok, I'll wait a bit and maybe get my own box of it. My only complaint with PETG is gluing it together is kind of a pain. Overall it prints great.

Yeah, could be worse though - nothing wants to stick to polypropylene.

On a side note though - the seller has some Ultem regrind he offered me for $3 a pound.  Now, on that, maybe we could all get together and come up with some way of divvying it up if you're interested - even with shipping, if it works for us, that's quite a savings over what I think Ultem normally goes for.  I don't know if the Filastruder is capable of extruding Ultem (even with a 18V heater will it get up to the required temperatures?), but it would be fun to try right?

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Ultem? Interesting. I've only seen a couple people print with it, but it seems like a pretty good material. I don't suppose he'd be willing to send you a 1-2lb sample? I'm curious to see if we can even extrude the stuff into filament. smile

8 (edited by genesat1 2016-11-05 20:35:50)

Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

From what I have found the thermal coefficient of expansion is lower than even PETG so even though it extrudes at such a high temperature (350C) mathematically I think it should warp about like ABS at normal room temperatures.  I PMed elmoret but he didn't answer (maybe he gets asked it so often from people who have no idea the normal cost or the concept of layer strength and they just think of it as the ultimate material that he just ignores PMs that mention it).  Layer bonding is the real question.  I have the welded tip thermocouple so my Filastruder should in theory be able to work up to the temperatures required.  In theory its amorphous so its just a matter of our ability to get it up to a temperature where the motor can handle it.  Sometimes reality doesn't care what the theory is though.

Unfortunately the guy is pretty firm on 'nothing under 55lbs'.  If you want 1000lbs he's your guy, but if you want 1lb - nope.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

I've never intentionally ignored anyone's messages. Forum PMs are probably the least reliable method of communication - it requires me to visit the forum, and since there's no way (that I've found) to mark a message as unread, if I can't reply right then it's hard to keep track of what needs a reply.

Anyway - I don't know of anyone that has done Ultem, just PEEK and PAEK. Lots of the exotic stuff gets done by companies that don't like to share what they're working on. But I'd think 15 volts will get hot enough and 18 volts definitely would.

10 (edited by genesat1 2016-11-05 23:35:41)

Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

elmoret wrote:

I've never intentionally ignored anyone's messages. Forum PMs are probably the least reliable method of communication - it requires me to visit the forum, and since there's no way (that I've found) to mark a message as unread, if I can't reply right then it's hard to keep track of what needs a reply.

Anyway - I don't know of anyone that has done Ultem, just PEEK and PAEK. Lots of the exotic stuff gets done by companies that don't like to share what they're working on. But I'd think 15 volts will get hot enough and 18 volts definitely would.

Ahh, ok, I wasn't sure, and didn't want to seem overbearing by PMing the same question again.  For future reference - is it ok to contact you via the site to discuss untested or at least unreported plastic types?  I've tried to only use the contact form for things related to orders, and keep all discussion of plastic types to the forum. 

Interesting - so if we can get it to work we'll be one of the first ones to be able to tell you about it.  I had the thought come to me - since it's regrind - I need to ask him to send me a photo of the pellets with something in frame to judge scale, or measure the pellets for me.  Hopefully they have granulated them to a size that will feed smoothly - but regrind could be big chunks too.  The only other place I've seen Ultem was $30 a pound for virgin material so $3 for regrind is a huge difference if it works.

Elmoret am I understanding thermal coefficient of expansion correction in relation to warping we experience while printing?  The one thing that makes me pause on that is Delrin.  Delrin is the one plastic that just would not work for me - it destroys itself while printing from warping forces.  If we made ABS a 1 on the warp scale, Polypropylene a 5, Delrin would be a 10.  Yet, when I look up the thermal coefficient of expansion for Delrin it is lower than ABS - which makes me wonder if I'm interpreting warp incorrectly.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Yes, please do use the contact for (or just email directly, filastruder at gmail) for all direct communications. I have email pretty streamlined. Never feel like a bother/overbearing, if I haven't responded it is only by mistake.

If a few folks are interested, I'd be willing to facilitate a group buy. If you promise to do a writeup, I'd send some of the 55 pounds for free. I really do want the Filastruder to get run through its paces so to speak, just haven't had much time to do it myself.

Its not just thermal expansion coefficient, it is glass transition temperature. PLA's CTE is actually a little higher than ABS (generally speaking, there's lots of flavors of both polymers with varying CTEs) but PLA has less affinity for warp because its glass transition temperature is ~60C as compared to ABS's ~100C.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

elmoret wrote:

Yes, please do use the contact for (or just email directly, filastruder at gmail) for all direct communications. I have email pretty streamlined. Never feel like a bother/overbearing, if I haven't responded it is only by mistake.

If a few folks are interested, I'd be willing to facilitate a group buy. If you promise to do a writeup, I'd send some of the 55 pounds for free. I really do want the Filastruder to get run through its paces so to speak, just haven't had much time to do it myself.

Its not just thermal expansion coefficient, it is glass transition temperature. PLA's CTE is actually a little higher than ABS (generally speaking, there's lots of flavors of both polymers with varying CTEs) but PLA has less affinity for warp because its glass transition temperature is ~60C as compared to ABS's ~100C.

On Monday (they are closed on weekends) I will call and ask about pellet size on the regrind (and price on the virgin material if the regrind pellets sound too big).  A group buy would be great, and I would definitely do a writeup.  If we can get it to print well enough I am picturing a whole 3D printer made out of it  - then we could enclose it, hook a heater up to a temperature controller, and have a heated chamber at pretty much any temperature practical for most other printed material (since Ultem doesn't even reach Tg until over 200C).  Or, here is a crazy idea - print a thin raft/sheet, adhere it to the bed, and have a PEI sheet that in effect becomes perfectly level in relation to your nozzle.

Here is a full list of the types of plastic they sell:
http://independentplastic.com/online-inventory

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Wow, they have quite a bit, including some common stuff like PA757. Might be worth having them load up a pallet or two.

If you call, could you ask about pricing on all of their products? Perhaps they have a master spreadsheet or something?

14 (edited by genesat1 2016-11-07 19:56:26)

Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

elmoret wrote:

Wow, they have quite a bit, including some common stuff like PA757. Might be worth having them load up a pallet or two.

If you call, could you ask about pricing on all of their products? Perhaps they have a master spreadsheet or something?

I called and I gave your email address to him (the public one you had posted on here, so hopefully that's ok), he doesn't have a master spreadsheet though - it is more dependent on quantity - me with 55lbs purchases would be different than you with a pallet or two.

He said he also has some compounded Ultem available, it's where they took regrind, and reprocessed it into normal pellets again (so there is no worry about regrind size and how well it might feed in a Filastruder).  He said the price on that would be very close to what the regrind is - so that might be the better way for us to go.

His phone number is here: http://independentplastic.com/sales-team , the person I've been talking to is the very first listing there - Chris English.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Yup - he emailed me. I'll get back to him in the next few days.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Interesting. I'd like to participate in a group buy or similar. I'd also be willing to do a write up.

For something that I know I can use, I could do 55lb. But for an unknown it's a bit much.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

I would be willing to throw down for a few pounds!

OP- What was your extrusion speed like?

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Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

I'm in talks with them - if you guys could, please look at their inventory and let me know if there's any plastics you're interested in.

http://independentplastic.com/online-inventory

19 (edited by genesat1 2016-11-15 20:18:12)

Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

AZERATE wrote:

I would be willing to throw down for a few pounds!

OP- What was your extrusion speed like?

It was one of the fastest extruding plastics I've tried - if you've ever done any flexible filaments then you know how much faster it can be than even ABS.  It wasn't quite to the level of flexible filaments, but it was faster than the ABS type I was doing before (PA-747).

Here is an example of the strength of PETG even in raw filament form - my Filawinder pauses at the end of a spool for about 10-15 turns before it starts moving the servo back the other direction (need to put it in debug mode and find out if it's the hall sensor or what it is - up to this point it didn't appear to be having any real detrimental effects though).  I try to compensate by just not having the guide as far over so that it evens out a bit more rather than building up on the edges of the spool.  Apparently it caused a tangle on one of my spools though - the extruder, despite having a tiny little pancake stepper with a Titan, pulled the spool up, off the spool holder, hoisted/lifted it into the air, and pulled it INTO my printer from the top right up to the extruder.  You KNOW with ABS or PLA that filament would have either snapped or been grinded away LONG before that point.

Things I'm interested in:
ADDITIVE    VIRGIN    NATURAL    RAPIDPURGE MP1000
ADDITIVE    VIRGIN    NATURAL    PURGEPRO 100G

Better way to flush out a higher temperature and move to a lower temperature plastic (eg flush out Ultem) or to change colors?

They don't have PVB unfortunately - do you know of any other plastics that are soluble in isopropyl alcohol?  Thinking along the lines of Polysmooth.

PEI    VIRGIN    NATURAL    ULTEM
or
PEI    REGRIND    BLACK    ULTEM 1000

(Obviously Ultem since that's what got the conversation going)

PPA would be interesting - suppose to absorb moisture less, be stiffer (particularly at higher temperatures), variation on nylon 6.  Unfortunately the only type they have is glass filled which I have not yet tried in my Filastruder at all (if it polishes the barrel you lose that difference in friction and your melt output would drop right?)

PU    VIRGIN    NATURAL    IROGRAN A85

The flexible resin I currently have is 80A, 85A is Ninjaflex.  They have some 90A too that would be easier to print for people.  80A is hard to print - doable, but hard.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Yes, polishing the barrel reduces its friction and the output rate. Some people have done small batches of GF without issue, though.

I've added the above to my pricing requests. Looks like I'll get a pallet or two of materials, perhaps Filastruder will now start carrying pellets.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Let us know! It will be interesting to see what comes out. I'm interested in PETG, ULTEM, and Flexible. I've already ordered some of the powder colorant from OS3DP.

Regarding PETG glue, I was working with pipe and happened to have a couple test prints in the room. So I used PVC glue on it. It seemed to work well. The particular brand was "Christies Red Hot Blue Glue". It seems to use MEK.

That's the best thing about ABS, easy solvent welding and smoothing with a reasonably harmless solvent, acetone. And it doesn't leave a blue residue like the PVC glue I used.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

I'll probably place an order late this week. If anyone else has suggestions, I'm all ears. Its cheap to throw a couple more bags on the pallets.

If you guys think its worth making a thread in the Filastruder forum, go for it. I just don't want to seem spammy.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

elmoret wrote:

I'll probably place an order late this week. If anyone else has suggestions, I'm all ears. Its cheap to throw a couple more bags on the pallets.

If you guys think its worth making a thread in the Filastruder forum, go for it. I just don't want to seem spammy.


If it is cheap to get another bag I would be interested in this: MAKROBLEND EL700.  Apparently a blend of PC and PET.  Appears to have fantastic impact strength, still maintains a HDT slightly higher than ABS.  The copolyester should help with warping and bring nozzle temperature down to <300C level.  Maybe ask if they have a mineral filled version available - it may be a little weaker but would further reduce warp.

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

elmoret wrote:

I'll probably place an order late this week. If anyone else has suggestions, I'm all ears. Its cheap to throw a couple more bags on the pallets.

If you guys think its worth making a thread in the Filastruder forum, go for it. I just don't want to seem spammy.

I'd say Spam away!!!!
This is one of the more interesting threads we've seen in a while.

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Thanks to all for your contributions

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Re: [Copolyester/PETG] - Eastman EASTAR Copolyester 6763 + Powder colorant

Hi genesat1,

Thanks for the good evaluation of the PETG, I also just bought 55lb, and powdered colorant, and am now in waiting.
Questions:
How much colorant did you use to come up with that green filament?
What temperatures did you print at?

Thanks!