1 Topic by mwille

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Topic: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

I've been reading about using multiples of your extrusion width for parts while modeling to keep from leaving gaps.  What I haven't read is if the same should be done for modeling z heights using multiples of your layer height.  It makes sense to me, but does the way slicers work somehow make this not worth considering?  Due to slicing, should I even go as far as making horizontal surfaces start & stop at multiples of my layer height as well?

If this would be a good practice (and not a waste of time for the benefit it might provide), does anyone know yet if the new SD Press uses a 5/16 z-rod or a metric one?  Since I'm new to modeling/printing, I figure I might as well create the habit of making my models based on the appropriate layer height (.2963mm vs. .3mm).

Also, from this thread (.../topic/5406/why-42mm-width-why-not-5mm-width/) and its links, it appears that using a .5mm instead of .48mm extrusion width would be OK.  As the thread states, that would make modeling in multiples much easier.  The thing is that basically every other thread I've read on calibration suggests using .48mm (for a .4mm nozzle) and never mentions any other alternative.  So, is .48mm that much better than .5mm, or is that just the standard 120% of the nozzle size that everyone goes by?

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2 Reply by wardjr (edited by wardjr 2014-11-09 04:33:44)

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

Modeling for multiples of Z really wouldn't make much of a difference other than at top layers.  At that point the benefit would be negligible.  For extrusion width, keep in mind that you are controlling the tool path and if it is set too large you will end up with perimeters that don't connect enough for a strong print.  What it comes down to is how your prints look if the extrusion width were set at .5.  If they are good then by all means model at .5 but if not then you're stuck modeling at multiples of .48
Now all of that being said most slicers do a pretty decent job of figuring most of this out for you.
You'll just have to play around and come up with what works best for you.
Happy Printing

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3 Reply by n2ri

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

mwille wrote:

I've been reading about using multiples of your extrusion width for parts while modeling to keep from leaving gaps.  What I haven't read is if the same should be done for modeling z heights using multiples of your layer height.  It makes sense to me, but does the way slicers work somehow make this not worth considering?  Due to slicing, should I even go as far as making horizontal surfaces start & stop at multiples of my layer height as well?

If this would be a good practice (and not a waste of time for the benefit it might provide), does anyone know yet if the new SD Press uses a 5/16 z-rod or a metric one?  Since I'm new to modeling/printing, I figure I might as well create the habit of making my models based on the appropriate layer height (.2963mm vs. .3mm).

Also, from this thread (.../topic/5406/why-42mm-width-why-not-5mm-width/) and its links, it appears that using a .5mm instead of .48mm extrusion width would be OK.  As the thread states, that would make modeling in multiples much easier.  The thing is that basically every other thread I've read on calibration suggests using .48mm (for a .4mm nozzle) and never mentions any other alternative.  So, is .48mm that much better than .5mm, or is that just the standard 120% of the nozzle size that everyone goes by?


extrusion width has nothing to do with item being printed only a multiplier based on nozzle size and printer etc. unless your talking slicer profiles which are mostly between .1mm to 0.4mm

layers and perimeters are how thick you want outer surface to be in order to avoid curves or top/bottom of model having holes where 1 layer didnt reach the previous layer on all edges. I mostly do N scale vehicles and small objects using 0.1mm or 0.2mm profiles in slic3r and I use mostly 8 layer top/bottom and 4 perimeters so its solid on all outside edges and not looking like a torn up rag top roof etc.

it takes several prints to get the feel for the settings in slicer

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

4 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

n2ri wrote:
mwille wrote:

I've been reading about using multiples of your extrusion width for parts while modeling to keep from leaving gaps.  What I haven't read is if the same should be done for modeling z heights using multiples of your layer height.  It makes sense to me, but does the way slicers work somehow make this not worth considering?  Due to slicing, should I even go as far as making horizontal surfaces start & stop at multiples of my layer height as well?

If this would be a good practice (and not a waste of time for the benefit it might provide), does anyone know yet if the new SD Press uses a 5/16 z-rod or a metric one?  Since I'm new to modeling/printing, I figure I might as well create the habit of making my models based on the appropriate layer height (.2963mm vs. .3mm).

Also, from this thread (.../topic/5406/why-42mm-width-why-not-5mm-width/) and its links, it appears that using a .5mm instead of .48mm extrusion width would be OK.  As the thread states, that would make modeling in multiples much easier.  The thing is that basically every other thread I've read on calibration suggests using .48mm (for a .4mm nozzle) and never mentions any other alternative.  So, is .48mm that much better than .5mm, or is that just the standard 120% of the nozzle size that everyone goes by?


extrusion width has nothing to do with item being printed only a multiplier based on nozzle size and printer etc. unless your talking slicer profiles which are mostly between .1mm to 0.4mm

layers and perimeters are how thick you want outer surface to be in order to avoid curves or top/bottom of model having holes where 1 layer didnt reach the previous layer on all edges. I mostly do N scale vehicles and small objects using 0.1mm or 0.2mm profiles in slic3r and I use mostly 8 layer top/bottom and 4 perimeters so its solid on all outside edges and not looking like a torn up rag top roof etc.

it takes several prints to get the feel for the settings in slicer

I disagree with this entire statement on so many levels.

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5 Reply by n2ri (edited by n2ri 2014-11-27 16:12:38)

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

well I can show you several tiny cars with holes in roof, hood, trunk and floors due to not enough top/bottom layers plus some cylinder tanks with holes in curved sides due to not enough perimeters as layers get laid down a lot further from last

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

6 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

n2ri wrote:

well I can show you several tiny cars with holes in roof, hood, trunk and floors due to not enough top/bottom layers plus some cylinder tanks with holes in curved sides due to not enough perimeters as layrs get layed down a bot further from last

I refuse to take away from the OP on this subject so I will offer this.  Learn/understand before you offer advice with such certainty.  If you are experiencing holes and the only way you've found around that is multiple layers than perhaps you don't understand slice profiles and all the options available as much as you think.

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7 Reply by n2ri (edited by n2ri 2014-11-09 06:06:40)

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

wardjr wrote:

Modeling for multiples of Z really wouldn't make much of a difference other than at top layers.  At that point the benefit would be negligible.  For extrusion width, keep in mind that you are controlling the tool path and if it is set too large you will end up with perimeters that don't connect enough for a strong print.  What it comes down to is how your prints look if the extrusion width were set at .5.  If they are good then by all means model at .5 but if not then you're stuck modeling at multiples of .48
Now all of that being said most slicers do a pretty decent job of figuring most of this out for you.
You'll just have to play around and come up with what works best for you.
Happy Printing


the profiles in slicer that say like 0.3mm are not just that far apart side to side but also that thick/tall meaning they are being extruded into roughly an 0.3mm x 0.3mm squarish round line. so if 0.3mm is used on a curved surface on a tiny detailed print only a couple mm tall or wide then the finish model will look like a topographical map with lots of stairs and if only  1-2 perimeters then those stairs will have gaps between them on curves/angles.

same thing applies to say a Lithopane print only 3.0mm thick if its printed using anything more than 0.1mm you may get print finished a bit faster but wont see much detail to even know whats pictured in it. because with 0.1mm it will have 30 layers of detail but if you use 0.3mm its only 10 layers to try and achieve same detail. its like the diferance between playing an 8 bit Atari 2600 game versus a modern 3D graphics PC game. do you want great detail or grainy? so depends on what your looking to use print for and how smooth it needs to be. no amount of acetone can correct/sharpen that detail if it was never printed.

this also helps understand why my old SD2 with the cheap-O hotend cant keep up and make true 100% solid prints in like 0.3mm because the filament/flow has to be multiplied in cubic mm meaning the differance between those 2 profiles is 9 times more flow for 0.3mm than 0.1mm not just 3 times.

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

8 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

@mwille
If you have questions feel free to send me a PM

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9 Reply by n2ri (edited by n2ri 2014-11-09 14:47:16)

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

n2ri wrote:
wardjr wrote:

Modeling for multiples of Z really wouldn't make much of a difference other than at top layers.  At that point the benefit would be negligible.  For extrusion width, keep in mind that you are controlling the tool path and if it is set too large you will end up with perimeters that don't connect enough for a strong print.  What it comes down to is how your prints look if the extrusion width were set at .5.  If they are good then by all means model at .5 but if not then you're stuck modeling at multiples of .48
Now all of that being said most slicers do a pretty decent job of figuring most of this out for you.
You'll just have to play around and come up with what works best for you.
Happy Printing


the profiles in slicer that say like 0.3mm are not just that far apart side to side but also that thick/tall meaning they are being extruded into roughly an 0.3mm x 0.3mm squarish round line. so if 0.3mm is used on a curved surface on a tiny detailed print only a couple mm tall or wide then the finish model will look like a topographical map with lots of stairs and if only  1-2 perimeters then those stairs will have gaps between them on curves/angles.

same thing applies to say a Lithopane print only 3.0mm thick if its printed using anything more than 0.1mm you may get print finished a bit faster but wont see much detail to even know whats pictured in it. because with 0.1mm it will have 30 layers of detail but if you use 0.3mm its only 10 layers to try and achieve same detail. its like the diferance between playing an 8 bit Atari 2600 game versus a modern 3D graphics PC game. do you want great detail or grainy? so depends on what your looking to use print for and how smooth it needs to be. no amount of acetone can correct/sharpen that detail if it was never printed.

this also helps understand why my old SD2 with the cheap-O hotend cant keep up and make true 100% solid prints in like 0.3mm because the filament/flow has to be multiplied in cubic mm meaning the differance between those 2 profiles is 9 times more flow for 0.3mm than 0.1mm not just 3 times.


due to size diameter of nozzles it would not be full 9x but some place between 3 and 9. same as when testing flow calibrations on different size nozzles for speed of extruder movement and filament feed rate in millimeters per min.
with my .35 nozzle a .1mm profile should squish walls to .42mm wide after swelling of extrusion is figured hence that number being posted lots. but the newer SD nozzles of .4mm using same .1mm profile will produce .48mm wide/thick walls. so this means as Wardjr says each perimeter must be spaced that far away from other perimeters. and this is tricky to calculate given the variables that can effect how much filament swells or is squished to maintain the profile height/thickness. but once perimeter goes above Nozzle size this calculation gets more loose and not mashed as much is why layers dont stick as well, and if magnified a profile of say ,6mm would look more like a log cabin, with more round edged layers. also more gaps between perimeters.

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

10 Reply by mwille

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

Thanks for the input guys.  It got me to thinking, so I decided to do some testing using the preview in Repetier.  I modeled a simple “staircase” using 1mm cubes stacked on top of each other and offset by .5mm each time.  Using Slic3r at .3mm layer height, I learned how it determines the layers.  The first cube has 3 layers, the 2nd  has 4 layers, then back to 3 layers, and repeats from there.  This results in having .9mm & 1.2mm thicknesses instead of a uniform 1mm that was modeled. 

So, to obtain the most precision & consistency (especially with small dimensions) it will be best to make horizontal planes start/stop at a multiple of the layer height.  For most parts this probably won't even be noticeable, but for those of us that are slightly obsessive/compulsive, it's something to consider. 

As far as the .5mm extrusion width, I wonder if .48mm is referenced so often simply because it is the value automatically calculated in Slic3r for a .4mm nozzle by default?  If it is manually set in the advanced tab at .5mm & a test cube is printed and calibrated for that thickness, wouldn't it print just as well?  However, I understand there will be a slight loss in fine detail similar to using an ink pen with a 1mm tip as compared to a .7mm tip.

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11 Reply by Leghk

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

Also keep in mind that this will have the extruder pushing slightly more volume, so depending on your driver tuning, stepper quality, etc etc it may force you to slow travel for your flow to keep up.

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12 Reply by grob (edited by grob 2014-11-20 00:47:45)

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

mwille wrote:

I've been reading about using multiples of your extrusion width for parts while modeling to keep from leaving gaps.  What I haven't read is if the same should be done for modeling z heights using multiples of your layer height.  It makes sense to me, but does the way slicers work somehow make this not worth considering?  Due to slicing, should I even go as far as making horizontal surfaces start & stop at multiples of my layer height as well?

Modelling in multiples of your extrusion width is great for thin walls (as a guide, anything less than 2 * [wall thickness] * [perimeter count]), but once you've got a volume with infill it doesn't matter so much.

You're right, the printer can only print in quantized layers, so if you design an object to an exact multiple of your layer height it will come out of the printer as close as it can get to what you intended. Otherwise the horizontal layer will just end up at the closest print layer, which may or may not matter. smile

mwille wrote:

If this would be a good practice (and not a waste of time for the benefit it might provide), does anyone know yet if the new SD Press uses a 5/16 z-rod or a metric one?  Since I'm new to modeling/printing, I figure I might as well create the habit of making my models based on the appropriate layer height (.2963mm vs. .3mm).

I would consider it worth changing to a metric thread just so I can avoid the .2963 thing; what a silly number! Up to you, the banding from rounding error in the layers is pretty subtle, so just run with .2 or .3mm for ease of use to start, and if you notice banding try out .2963, but it would be silly to decide to model exclusively in .2963ths of a mm just because of this!

mwille wrote:

Also, from this thread (.../topic/5406/why-42mm-width-why-not-5mm-width/) and its links, it appears that using a .5mm instead of .48mm extrusion width would be OK.  As the thread states, that would make modeling in multiples much easier.  The thing is that basically every other thread I've read on calibration suggests using .48mm (for a .4mm nozzle) and never mentions any other alternative.  So, is .48mm that much better than .5mm, or is that just the standard 120% of the nozzle size that everyone goes by?

I print with .5mm walls (even with a .35mm nozzle!) and it's great - exactly the same reasoning as you and that thread. Being over the recommended [wall width = 120% * nozzle diameter] is not as problematic as being under. There's a practical limitation in the diameter of the flat on the end of the nozzle (close to or over this and you'll get scraggly edges), and as the wall thickness goes up of course the sharp edges lose definition, but I honestly cannot tell the difference between a test cube at .48mm and .50mm. The layers being a bit squishier may even be better for bed and interlayer adhesion, but I don't have much to back that up.

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13 Reply by n2ri

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

"There's a practical limitation in the diameter of the flat on the end of the nozzle"

also this needs considered on things like gap/spacing like on support. I have found with my .35 nozzle (plus the flat tip around the orifice) that linear support spacing must be at least half that width so that the hot end dont re-melt the last layer of the lines on either side as it lays the line in between. thus causing layers to deform/peel away. so closest I get by with is .18 before fails in parts of support. so larger nozzles will limit support for details e.g. a .6mm nozzle can only lay support spaced as close to each other as like.33 making tiny detailed parts near impossible to finish well if at all. wheels printed in place on tiny vehicles are hardest to print without support making contact with them while printing so they dont get knocked over b4 attached to rest of model. thats my #1 problem doing some N scale vehicles.

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

14 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

@grob
Are you finding that you need to tweak your extrusion multiplier to use .5 with a .35 nozzle?  Or what wall thickness do calibrate for?

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15 Reply by Retroplayer

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

n2ri wrote:

"There's a practical limitation in the diameter of the flat on the end of the nozzle"

also this needs considered on things like gap/spacing like on support. I have found with my .35 nozzle (plus the flat tip around the orifice) that linear support spacing must be at least half that width so that the hot end dont re-melt the last layer of the lines on either side as it lays the line in between. thus causing layers to deform/peel away. so closest I get by with is .18 before fails in parts of support. so larger nozzles will limit support for details e.g. a .6mm nozzle can only lay support spaced as close to each other as like.33 making tiny detailed parts near impossible to finish well if at all. wheels printed in place on tiny vehicles are hardest to print without support making contact with them while printing so they dont get knocked over b4 attached to rest of model. thats my #1 problem doing some N scale vehicles.


I've seen nozzles down to .15. I have no experience with them, though.

16 Reply by grob

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

No claims my prints are perfect of course, but they've held together ok so far.

I just calibrated the extruder steps-per-mm over 100mm, and then using a single-wall box as per usual, at .50mm wall thickness: in the end I don't think I changed the multiplier much, but I feel things should be calibrated as close to their operating conditions as is reasonable.

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17 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

Your prints are perfect that's what I've heard anyway wink 
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18 Reply by Ggalisky

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

wardjr wrote:

  Learn/understand before you offer advice with such certainty.

This is incredibility important for all users to pay attention too.

@mwille What 3D design software are you using?

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19 Reply by mwille

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Re: Modeling using multiples of layer height as well as extrusion width?

Right now I'm using 123d Design.  Since I'm new to all this, it seemed to be one of the simplest to use while having some advanced features as well. 

The reason I started this topic was that I was designing some objects that will have places for magnets.  I want them close to the edges for better holding power, so I will be using thin walls around them.  I'm hoping 1mm walls will work.  Being that thin it seems that layer height might be a consideration for modelling.

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