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Topic: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

Hello,

I tried to get filastruder working for month, but not really with success.
Someone can please help me?

I try to extrude PLA at 190°C.
Motor is set to 1,6 A.
But the auger ist standstill all the time.


I found out, that the pellets got stuck between the auger and the pipe, see attached photo.
Sometimes the Motor manage to cut the pellet into two peaces, then it continue to rotate after a few seconds.
Sometimes it has not enough power for this.

Currently I am using the "standard" feeder with a bottle.
Also tried vertical extrusion with this hopper: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:386796 with no change.


When I remove the feeder and the blocking pellet, extruding seems to work fine.
Feeding pellet by pellet with hand is also working...
The pipe has about 50°C at this point.

The auger is very sharp on this corner - is this normal?
Any ideas preventing this issue?

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

I received your email as well, but I'll reply here instead of attempting to keep multiple parallel conversations going.

1.) Did you first extrude the ABS as recommended? How did that go?
2.) 190C is too hot for PLA, 150-160C is more reasonable.
3.) What PLA are you using?
4.) How have you dried it?
5.) Have you tried increasing the current limit to 1.8A?
6.) Have you checked that there is 1-2mm of axial play at the hex socket? In other words are you certain there is no thrust load on the gearbox?

The auger photo is normal, it should slice through any pellets that get wedged in there, if everything else is OK.

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

Thank you for your answer.

1: I directly used the PLA. I thought it is complicated switching from high to low temperature material? And during transport the bag was disrupted, so the whole box was full of pellets - but they are not clean anymore.
2: I increased the temperature more and more, because the auger was stalling...
3: Ingeo 4043D
4: Hot air drying machine @80°C
5: Not jet, I thought 1.6 is the limit for the Motor?
6: The Hex socket is pritty fixed, but this is because I had to burnish (file/rasp) the auger to get it fit.
There is a 2mm gap between the hex-socket and the motor, so I think Force will go over the ball-bearing.

The Pellets are very tough - i hardly can cut one with a pilot punch.
This video indicate, that the pellets are pushed out instead of being cut, and there is a positive angel on the Auger:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hua7LYl1nsM
My auger has a negative angle and is very sharp. The pellets can not move away and get always clamped. If there are 2-3 clamped at a time, the motor stalls.

So the question is - is it normal that the auger is sharp or should it also be filed here?

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

1.) It is OK if the pellets are not clean, the inside of the barrel is also not clean during the initial purging. It is not complicated switching from high to low temperature material, just run until empty and then run some low temperature material at high temperature, and perhaps remove the nozzle and pull out any high temperature material with needle nose pliers. I'm not saying it is necessary to do this in your case, but sometimes it is a good "check" to ensure that things are operating normally using a well understood polymer.
2.) Increasing the temperature lengthens the melt zone, the amount of viscous polymer the motor has to churn.
3.) This is OK, there are several examples of successful 4043D extrusion on the forum.
4.) Good
5.) The gear motor can handle more than 1.6A. Above 2A there is risk of permanently deforming the barrel. I would try 1.8A, maybe even 2A. In one case a user needed close to 3A with PLA. I suspect his stall protection board was mis-calibrated or the motor was operating inefficiently for some reason, but am not sure.

Those pellets in the video are ABS, not PLA. They are a different shape and behave differently.

Is the thermocouple installed in the hole in the side of the nozzle? Sometimes people incorrectly install it under the heater.

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

Yes, the thermocouple is in the side hole of the nozzle and fixed with a pipe clamp.
Heatup take round about 20 minutes.

I will test your suggestion 3 and 5 tomorrow and will come back if this works.
Thank you for your help, hope we will get it running.

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

I tried the lower temperatures – but this makes the problem even worse.
Also removed the melt filter completely, but with no change (using 1.75 nozzle).
I Checked again, that all the thrust is going through the ball bearing, not the motor.

Changing the current to 2A will make the motor not completely stalling, but once in 5-10 seconds it is slowing very down to nearly standstill but make it to rotate again, what result in very uneven extrusion rates…
I also checked that the “slow down points” are not always on the same rotation spot, what maybe could be a bend auger.

I still think, the problem is the feeding zone, because when the hopper is empty, the Auger speed and extrusion is perfect. Maybe someone could post a in detail photo of his feeding zone?
Any further ideas?

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

I tested the included ABS with 180°C.
This works perfectly well at around 1A without jitter in the motor speed.

After I fill in the PLA – it immediately starts to go 1.7A - 2A and the motor is stalling.
Even if the complete pipe is still full of ABS. The few pellets in the feeder are enough.
Is there a maximum pellet size? Maybe it helps, if I shredder the pellets before?

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

Just thinking out loud...

Have you tried blocking off the area that has the pellets pinching against the body of the extruder and the screw. A bit of Teflon tape or K-tape could be enough to keep the pellets loaded in the screw from coming out, and pellets being fed from the top from falling into that area.

I have had great success with Teflon tape to hold my hopper in place. A couple of wraps and once the hopper is clamped down it won't go anywhere. Plus the Teflon tape won't get hot enough to melt (that's how I hold my temp sensor in place on the head)...

...Or modify the current hopper and print one with a closer tolerance 'inside' the body of the shaft so that they won't get pinched.

Just throwing some spaghetti at the wall.

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

You could perhaps try filing the edge of the auger like you mentioned, but I'm puzzled as other users report success with what I assume are the same 4043D pellets that you're using, so I know it is not just our internal test machines that are successful. In my experience the auger tends to slice right through the pellet, perhaps a momentary slowdown but not stalling.

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

Question for you Elmoret.
I have read, you changed the auger in the newer machines to have less gap.

What was the diameter before?
What is now the diameter?

Theory:
PLA get slushy (hope the right word) already at about 90-100°C and may glue the gap between auger and pipe. Possible that a bigger gap here might be helpful?

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

The ID of the barrels from our supplier got slightly bigger, so I changed the auger to one that was slightly larger because some plastics that come in small pellets were getting stuck between the outside of the auger and the inside of the barrel wall. The difference in diameter is about 1mm.

I have some of the previous auger on hand if you'd like to try one, just get in touch via email.

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

We have been having the same issue using 3D850 PLA pellets.  We were able to produce ABS adequately.  Still learning, but finally got a short run within tolerance.  Switched over to PLA and stall after stall.  Discovered the filament cooling fan was cooling the nozzle down too much which caused it to get stall more often.  Once we adjusted the fan to cool the filament well after it came out, the temperature remained much more consistent, but we still got the inconsistent speed.  Our amperage was fluctuating between 1.6 - 2.4A.  At 2.5ish it would stall.  You would see the light on the stall controller light up. We also noticed that when it first stalled it torqued our pipe moving the opening over a to one side a bit, and it made it so tight, i have not been able to back it off and make it vertical again.  We are unsure how to proceed at this point for producing PLA.  We plan to test out ABS again to ensure we can still produce that after the stall/torque issue.

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

2.5 amps is excessive, that indicates the stall protection board was likely not set up properly. Running currents that high runs the risk of bending the barrel or damaging the gearbox. You said "moved over to one side" - I would recommend checking that the barrel is still straight, and then setting up the stall protection board per the instructions.

The barrel cutout doesn't need to be perfectly vertical, within 45 degrees is fine.

I've never tried 3D850 pellets, they may be too hard for the auger to slice through assuming you're observing that happening. Another possibility is that switching from ABS to PLA is if there's still ABS in the barrel/melt zone, it won't flow very well at PLA temperatures. If you'd like to try the other version auger, get in touch via the Filastruder contact form.

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

Sorry my description was probably bad.  The barrel twisted (more threads used) but about 15 degrees.  So i think its still well within tolerance but we have not run it since it happened.  I started taking it apart to clean up what was still in there.  The Amps never stayed that high, just when it was getting ready to stall.  I'll need to revisit how to reprogram that.  We are using it as it came out of the box.  I didn't see a section telling me I needed to do otherwise, but that is very likely my fault. 

We ran the PLA at ABS temps for the first 2 oz of PLA material to help "clean out" the ABS and color we added to it.  And you are very correct, the ABS temps were way too hot for the PLA once the ABS was cleared out.  We backed it down about 45 degrees to a much more reasonable temp (225 -> 180).  After our initial complications with the fan, I think I could easily bring that done more since the nozzle is staying at temp better.  I'll take apart the machine to make sure everything is properly aligned again and properly setup the stall protection board and see how it goes.  If that doesn't work, I'll reach out about the other version of the auger.  I believe we can get this one working, just need to get it dialed in. 

The 3D850 was attractive to me as it was a newer blend PLA that had a lot of advantages.

http://www.natureworksllc.com/~/media/T … .pdf?la=en

15 (edited by raven-bs 2017-02-25 07:40:56)

Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

I solved this issue by:
- extruding PLA at 200°C - then the stalles are gone
- drill the nozzle to 2mm
- use a laser micrometer and a puller to get it to diameter.

this runs at 0.9Amps.
Going down to 195°C and I have 2,4A and stalls back...

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

Hi Raven,

Out of curiosity:
"- use a laser micrometer and a puller to get it to diameter."
Is there a device I can buy to do the same, and how were you able to set it up? I am trying to figure out if I can somehow automate the consistency of the filament diameter.

Thanks!

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

Hi Zirak,

I build both by my self and controll it with an Arduino Uno.
Drop me a mail if you need more details or are interested in the plans..

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Re: Pellets from feeder are stalling the auger.

The MFR of 4043D is 6 while MG94 is 11.7. That means it is more viscous.

While I try to extrude an ABS with a similar MFR (melt flow rate) I had to lower a lot the voltage on the motor otherwise the red light on the stall protection will always on. Higher temperature would not help. I had to increase stall protection to approx. 1.8 amps and lower voltage. Of course, the extrusion is much slower as the motor in filastruder is very small, only 18 watts and it cannot handle high forces.

Always look for a polymer with high melt flow rate if you want your filastruder to work fast and with no problems. Your motor will also last longer.