1 (edited by kr15_uk 2016-08-17 15:33:50)

Topic: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

Ladies and gents,

As some of you may know I've upgraded my Jr to E3D v6/Lite6 hotend.
It's been 2x weeks now and thought I'll share my experience so far.

1st thing what comes to people head when they hear E3D is a word - quality.
Is it true in Jr's case?!
Well... I'm surprised to say that but I'll be rolling back to old hotend and keep E3D for my next DIY printer project I'm working on.
Is it that bad? NO, not at all! I just don't see any difference in quality believe it or not.

I've printed quite a lot using E3D, probably spool and a half (1kg PLA spools I'm talking about).
I never go below 0.2 so haven't compared any of those above 0.2
Tried to go as low as 0.04 by printing Marvin, both prints were identical.

So if you are after quality, E3D hotend isn't probably the magic pill which will turn everything around.

But, there are loads of benefits if you go with E3D and 2x pretty major in my opinion.
1. Remember last time you were changing filament in hurry and managed to get Jr famous mini clog between the sensor and metal bit what have prevented you form loading new filament. Probably happened yesterday. And day before. wink With E3D and it's open design plate I've designed that problem is nonexistent.
2. Changeable Nozzles. Various sizes from 0.25 to 0.8 and hardened ones if you want to go with abrasive filament. Have you tried to do "vase" mode printing and it came out all so fragile? I've printed a rocket with 0.8 nozzle! It's brilliant, fairly thick to feel like 3D print instead on hard balloon. (Before I'll go back I want to get 0.25mm one and play around with that.) And last thing - abrasive filaments. Btw did you know that glow in the dark filament is categorised as abrasive? Or either buy hardened nozzle or get a new one when old one starts to misbehave, simple is that.

If anyone is interested in E3D v6/Lite6 conversion you can get STL's off thingiverse below.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1724209
Also I've only designed bracket. Fan duct what you see is made by someone else on thingiverse.
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:839620
But you can choose any other cooling solution available, even stick with E3D's supplied fan.

If you have any questions/suggestions. I'm happy to listen/answer.

http://soliforum.com/i/?W3cZs0d.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?4q0vKB8.jpg

2 (edited by gravy 2016-08-23 15:07:47)

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@kr15_UK. How would you compare the weight of the original printhead to the E3d mod? Wondering if this has a greater negative effect on the right hand of the X axis.

3

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@gravy -
I'd say the same.
Yes you get rid of horizontal metal bracket which holds hotend, pcb, full body case etc...
But then you have your 50% infill printed part which is made fairly thick + E3D is slightly more heavier than stock hotend...

About that sagging thing...
As you know I've rolled back to Jr stock hotend for now but I'm working on new mount for Jr hotend to get rid of that enclosed design.
Also as a part of my design is to create hybrid/modular design, basically so I can run it as bowden or direct drive (bowden + flexible material doesn't work, semiflex maybe but not flexTPU like).
Some of my tests with extruder motor sitting on top obviously made it sag even more, but after you calibrate your bed you kind of a account for that sag...
All the prints came out fine (fine for Jr standards).

To be honest I do start to believe that this sagging thing is just a "hype", with calibrated bed in the same manner as sag angle is like printing with the printer which is dead straight but whole box is lifted in 45degree angle (45 obviously is made up number and nothing to do with the Jr sag angle).

4

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@kr15_UK. Thank you for that. I do have one thing to ask. I'm not sure if I've already asked you this so apologies if I'm repeating myself. I believe you use the E3d thermistor and heater. How were the temps with that thermistor? I guess PID was not used? Were the temps consistent?

5

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

gravy wrote:

@kr15_UK. How would you compare the weight of the original printhead to the E3d mod? Wondering if this has a greater negative effect on the right hand of the X axis.

Try this mod, it greatly reduces the sagging. Doesn't eliminate it entirely, but it does improve it. The only way to entirely eliminate sag is to do a complex pulley system. XD

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1558580

6

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@gravy - hence Jr firmware is locked down there is no way to tune PID but temps seemed to be ok, I'd say the same as with Jr stock setup. Still the same 5c +/- annoyingly but that's Jr for you guys.

@reluttr - to be honest that's quite bad design approach. Core idea is correct but implementation method is terrible. Those rods after 100h or so of printing will have quite bad grooves in them. I'd put those bearings in 45degree angle so it goes with the flat side at least. Also if you go with the effort of putting bearings why not to use linear bearings instead?! Yes you need to disassemble Jr but at least you don't damage it.

7

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

Awesome work. I love that photo of the Jr all stripped down.

I have my E3d lite6 now, just need to assemble it. I might see if I can adapt your bracket to hold the stock hotend end the E3d for my dual extruder upgrade.

8

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

I'm printing your E3D mounting bracket now! I still need to assemble my Lite6 but maybe this'll light the hotend under my a$$ to do so.

I was so impressed with the look of your stripped-down Jr that I did that myself. Kinds looks like a Prusa now. At the least, it gives me a lot more access to mount my second extruder and a better look at how to extend Z!

9

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@kr15_uk - your bracket's working great. This finally motivated me to assemble my E3D Lite6 today. Here's a shot of it in action:

http://soliforum.com/i/?V8xmevU.jpg

I just finished a remix of this on Thingiverse. I created an OpenSCAD model for the bracket, and during my installation I measured a 2.2mm difference in my Z offset, so this version raises the mount by 2.2mm.

I also added M2 hex nut traps on the back so I can use M2 bolts to attach the clip instead of screws (I have lots of nuts available but no plastic-compatible screws). I have yet to print the new version myself but plan to soon.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1747277

I included a model and OpenSCAD module for just the blank bracket, so it's easy to create new Da Vinci Jr-compatible mounts.

10

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@anthem - looks good! I see you've gone bare frame as well!
Also thanks for the remix, when I was designing that bracket I didn't had E3D yet so all the measurements came from the STL I found and later on just didn't had a time to redesign it to compensate that 2.2mm. I think I mentioned that in thingiverse description.
I'll fix my one at some point for those who aren't very familiar with OpenSCAD, like me! wink

But if you are up for the challenge (and have a bit more time then I do currently) I had in mind to do 1. dual E3D setup (low priority hence I'm on Jr stock firmware), 2. Jr stock hotend open frame redesign (high priority hence I've rolled back to Jr hotend on my Jr and used E3D for my diy printer), 3. direct drive version (preferably with Jr hotend) so I can finally print something with flexible filaments (have 6x different material rolls)...

11 (edited by Anthem 2016-09-01 23:20:20)

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

I've got a prototype dual-extruder (E3D + DVJR) model in construction and printing now. I'll share it after I've actually tested the mounting and alignment, but here's a screenie:

http://soliforum.com/i/?dqQGDze.png
http://soliforum.com/i/?N32Bg6j.png

The idea here is to remove the hotend and the guide cone, use a clip to mount the guide with M3's, and use another two M3's to mount the hotend using the stock metal bracket along with the fan shroud/mount.

This of course discards (or relocates) the board with the filament sensor on it. I made the hotend holes oblong to allow for Z adjustment relative to the E3D.

It wouldn't be hard to produce a model similar to this but with an E3D on either side. After I get this one tested maybe I'll give that a try.

12 (edited by Anthem 2016-09-01 23:44:07)

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

Ha! Well that was easy. Here's a dual E3D:

http://soliforum.com/i/?HotgJbk.png

I don't have two E3Ds to test this with (do you?) so I'm sure there are tweaks that could be made (e.g., moving them closer together to minimize the X offset, tweak the ducts a little, etc.). If there's anything to change here, let me know. If you're using two of the same E3Ds then I'd hope the Z offset would be 0 without any tweaking needed.

This is based on my original remix design which is mainly your design with tweaks (using M2 bolts for the E3D mount and raised by 2.2mm. Print the same clip as above for both sides, of course.


You'll notice that my E3D+DVJR model does away with the duct channels on the side in favor of opening up the back entirely. Since the two hotends are offset from the main block this should improve the airflow. The same could be done with the dual E3D as well, but that'd take a bit more time.

Post's attachments

e3d_dual_bracket.stl 269.78 kb, 2 downloads since 2016-09-01 

e3d_hotend_bracket_clip.stl 95 kb, file has never been downloaded. 

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13 (edited by Anthem 2016-09-02 05:17:31)

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

So that was really weird. I printed my dual hotend bracket, and it snapped into a few pieces at certain layers when I took it off the bed. It seems to have broken just below and just above the spacers for the DVJR mount, as though it printed two whole layers of just support material (which there was plenty of to print this model.)

Fortunately it's not a disaster, as most of the important stuff is above those lines, and I was able to glue the two spacers back on, so I'll carry on testing with this print.

Ever had that happen before? I want to print another to see if it breaks in the same places as though my model is screwed up, but I have two pieces of v-slot to print tonight for my Y-axis mod that take priority. The visualization in Slic3r doesn't show anything unexpected. Maybe the parts were just to small and weak, so those were natural fracture points? I don't know.

14

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@anthem - My only concern - isn't it too wide?! Good example was with my cooling fan solution, if I used regular thickness 40mm fans they'll hit left hand side and prevent Jr from homing properly. Also by doing dual hotend setup you'll lose even more printable area on X axis. Actually if you are planning to extend Y axis you could hack both hotness in line so you don't lose on X axis print area but I guess there's a reason why no-one does that...

15

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@kr15_uk - Actually the width of the bracket above doesn't interfere with X homing at all. After my first print last night I've made some other adjustments, though.

For one, I realized that the bolt holes were way too long. I only have M3x20mm bolts at my disposal, and the holes were way too deep for those. I've switched back to using screw-in holes for the clips that are the right size to accept an M3 pretty well. I'm also testing a different approach for dropping in the M3 nuts for the DVJr hotend mount spacers.

Also, I figured out I was able to cut out about 13mm of dead space between the two hotends, not only reducing their offset but allowing me to shrink the width of the entire thing.

After these modifications, both hotends should be able to reach X=0. The right hotend can reach the full X axis, and the left hotend can reach all but about the last 8mm of the X-axis.

If I redesigned the DVJr fan shroud and my mounting method, I could get rid of the metal mounting bracket entirely, which would probably make up that difference and let both hotends reach the full X-axis.

16

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

Here's the OpenSCAD for the bracket and the DVJr-only bracket models. You'll need all three .scad files to render the brackets. I'm still not 100% certain I'm keeping this design (I have several ideas for a V2), but until I actually get some test prints out of it I won't know for sure.

Just flip the booleans at the bottom of the dual_hotend_bracket.scad file to pick the model(s) you want to render.

Post's attachments

davinci_bracket.scad 860 b, 4 downloads since 2016-09-07 

dual_hotend_bracket.scad 6.82 kb, 2 downloads since 2016-09-07 

dvjr_guide_clip.stl 97.8 kb, 11 downloads since 2016-09-07 

dvjr_hotend_bracket.stl 203.23 kb, 12 downloads since 2016-09-07 

mygeom.scad 2.38 kb, 2 downloads since 2016-09-07 

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17

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

Well, this is a pain. I've wired up the E3d. E3d Fan has correct polarity. Using E3d's 100k NTC thermistor. I believe polarity is irrelevant. Same as E3d 12v heater cartridge. When i try to run a print the temp reading on the display switches between 20 to 24c constantly. It does not go any higher. Wiring problem? I'm quite confident that the wiring is fine. Any thoughts?
btw. I'm using printers stock fw.

18 (edited by Kronikabuse 2016-09-15 10:37:43)

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

Fluctuations between 20-24'c is normal, thats room temp. I believe even on the davincis you need to flash the firmware for the new thermistor tables. If the firmware is right check the wiring

Sd4 #9080 with a glass bed. E3d chimera duel extruder. Paste extruder , duet wifi.
Lawsy carriages. linear bearings. Y axis direct drive, Kinect scanner
SD4#8188 glass bed, lawsly carriages, E3d v6, octoprint http://www.ustream.tv/channel/hotrod96z28
Filastruder/filawinder, Custom Delta 300mm x 600mm

19

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

gravy wrote:

Well, this is a pain. I've wired up the E3d. E3d Fan has correct polarity. Using E3d's 100k NTC thermistor. I believe polarity is irrelevant. Same as E3d 12v heater cartridge. When i try to run a print the temp reading on the display switches between 20 to 24c constantly. It does not go any higher. Wiring problem? I'm quite confident that the wiring is fine. Any thoughts?
btw. I'm using printers stock fw.

What is your MIN_TEMP set at in your firmware? Have you used a host like Repetier and checked the log to see if there are any errors?

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

20

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

I'm using stock f/w which is locked (da Vinci Jr). I may have misunderstood Kr15_UK 's post. I thought the E3d 100k thermistor would work oob but it seems not. I may, with a lot of help from a friend, attempt the Ramps conversion by Anthem. That will give me much more control over this printer.

21

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@gravy - if you have the money, time and ability, I highly recommend the RAMPS conversion. I'm having so much more fun with my printer since then. I still have my fair share of failures, so don't think It's going to cure all your 3d printing ills or anything (it's a messy problematic process by nature), but I consider RAMPS the most important upgrade you can make to a Jr.

If you have any questions about converting feel free to ask.

22

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@gravy - You are correct, I used E3D's thermistor and it worked fine for me. Also I can confirm that I had one of those new type of the thermistors but as far as I know old one was exactly the same, or pretty much very close to the new one.

Also 20-24c as @Kronikabuse said looks like room temperature to me.
1. If you try to warm up the thermistor by simply holding it in your hand does temperature goes up to 30c+?! (obviously standby mode otherwise you'll burn your fingers off)
2. Is cartridge heating up?! If you month have external thermometer use wet paper towel or piece of filament to determine if it's heating up.
3. Do you have multimeter?! Try to measure resistance on thermistor and heater block. Thermistor should be around 100k obviously and heather cartridge should read +/-3.5ohm if my math is correct assuming it's 40w cartridge.

And yes you are correct, fan requires right polarity but thermistor and heater block does not.
Also at least with my Jr when thermistor isn't plugged in it reads 10c, so if that's the case with all Jr then it reads something.

And the last as suggested by @Anthem - if you have enough spare time and love tinkering with electronics as such - go with the RAMPS upgrade. Money wise it's the same as couple of pints. The other day I've ordered another RAMPS + Mega + 4x A4988 of Ali Express, less then £15 delivered. If you want LCD that will be extra £6-7 (I've stopped wasting money on LCD's - I find them quite useless to be honest)

23

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@kr15_uk. Thank you for your response. When you mentioned "new type of the thermistors" are you refering to this http://e3d-online.com/E3D-v6/Spares/The … -Cartridge?

24

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

Anthem wrote:

@gravy - if you have the money, time and ability, I highly recommend the RAMPS conversion. I'm having so much more fun with my printer since then. I still have my fair share of failures, so don't think It's going to cure all your 3d printing ills or anything (it's a messy problematic process by nature), but I consider RAMPS the most important upgrade you can make to a Jr.

If you have any questions about converting feel free to ask.

@Anthem. Ive read your tutorial several times. excellent writeup btw. Ramps is the way im gonna go. I will have questions but of course, my main worry is he manual bit. lol. Plenty patience and no time limit. Time to let my JR spread its wings!

25

Re: Jr + E3D V6/Lite6

@gravy - yep, that's the one.
Also RAMPS upgrade is very easy thanks to the @Anthem. All depends how neat you want it.
My upgrade took literally a bit under an hour! BUT it's far from being neat by ant stretch. I haven't wired up Jr endstops (ziptied microswitch endstops instead), haven't removed logic board or any Jr part - just unplugged steppers and ran long cables to the side where my RAMPS, PSU etc are. Did it just as a test but never had a chance to do it properly! wink